Talk:Andrew Carnegie

All you want to know about Talk:Andrew Carnegie

This article incorporates text from the public domain Appleton's Cyclopedia of American Biography.
This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, now in the public domain.
Good article Andrew Carnegie was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.

Contents

Lacking in Citations

This article is severely lacking in citations, which I beleive invalidates it from being labelled a "good article".

Esquire?

On our Carnegie Library in Greenwich, UK, his name is shown as "Andrew Carnegie, Esq.". The wikipedia article never mentions that he was granted this title at some stage. Does anyone have something to back this up?

The title Esq. isn't "granted" and doesn't really mean anything. It's just used as a form of politeness denoting a "gentleman" see Esquire for a full explanation. Richerman (talk) 13:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

older entries

Did Carnegie invent a new process for manufacturing steel? This article is certainly far shorter than it ought eventually to become. -- Mike Hardy

Also, as of 2-12-07, the first External link, [[1]] , has no relevance to Carnegie, nor does anything on that site. Instead, the link goes to a biography on "Bernard Arnault" , CEO of Moét Hennessy Louis Vuitton.


I think he stole the new manufacturing process. His competitor invented it, and Carnegie ran a smear campaign against the new process, saying it resulted in inferior steel. So the company lost a lot of money, Carnegie was able to buy it, and then used the new, more efficient process himself. I don't have a source for that, just remembering from a movie on him i once saw. Tyrannophobe (talk) 18:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Early Life

Changed a sentenced that said slavery was referred to as "the peculiar institution" as a euphemism from its apologists. It was actually a neutral term, and "peculiar" was used in the sense that it was only common in one particular region of the United States, namely the South.

--Michael Hollinger-- I could find no external corroboration for a 5 yr. old Andrew Carnegie killing Piedmont Morgan. Could someone cite a reference for that?

Philanthropies

I'm new to Wikipedia and I know I should just add to this entry, and maybe someday I will. In the meantime, here are a few other Carnegie philanthropies in the U.S. that deserve mention:

  • Carnegie Corporation of New York
  • Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching
  • Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

There's a good list here: [2]

Alex


Many of today's private secular colleges/universities dropped their religious affiliations in the early 1900's. I remember reading somewhere this was because Carnegie stipulated secular conditions before he would help support a school. Does anyone know if this is correct? I can't find anything on google.


The amounts given for his share of the US Steel buyout and for his total philanthropic efforts don't add up. According to the article, the total alue of the US Steel buyout was US$ 480 million, which it says equates to US$ 120 billion today. Then at the end of the Philanthropist section it says that he gave away roughly US$ 350 million which was equated to $4.3 billion today.

I checked the historical rates at measuringworth.com and it looks like the second number was derived from the change in the CPI from 1919 to 2005. If that's the conversion used, then the first number should equate US$ 480 million to US$ 11.4 billion in 2005.

Clearly there was some significant inflation between 1901 and 1919, but not enough to cause the change seen in the article. I don't know the source for the first conversion, but they need to use the same method for both conversions. Historical purchasing power conversions can produce very different results depending on the method used. Radial 16:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Disgrace?

I just reverted a change that suggested that Carnegie wanted to give all his money away rather than die "disgraced". I thought that the change was somewhat spurious and without substance. So, if he was "disgraced", then what was he "disgraced" about? --Colin Angus Mackay 23:27, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Response,

Andrew Carnegie once wrote that "The man who dies thus rich, dies disgraced." He sincerly believed that dying with money was a waste, and that it was disgraceful to waste capital.


Also:

It seems odd that theories of monpolization or industrial integration don't appear in this article. Do we have a problem with point of view? Whether you think his business practices were good or not, it's important that this article has fair coverage from both perspectives on this man.

Immigrate / Emigrate

Will people please stop changing immigrate to emmigrate and back again. I thought it was wrong to begin with, but I checked the dictionary and immigrate (however much it sounds odd to some) is correct. You emmigrate FROM somewhere, and you immigrate TO somewhere. I'm now going to change it back.... again. --Colin Angus Mackay 22:13, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to be a narc, but emigrate has only one "m", while immigrate has two. I don't know which dictionary you used, but "emmigrate" (2 ms) is in none of the ones I have looked in. That's English for you. I've changed the heading. Cheers JackofOz 23:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Looking for assertions

When reading this article, i was looking for actions that would support this guy's assession. I found none. I didn't know they guy until today, but is the absence of such competitive behaviour due to the article's missing something or is the post on this link pushing a point too far? Just a curious reader. This is the statement that triggered me to read this article "I'm trying to think of another historical figure in the United States history who was that powerful, that philanthropic, and yet that reviled. Andrew Carnegie maybe."[3] gathima 00:44, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

An article was published in Scotland's Sunday Herald newspaper a few days ago that might shed some light on that claim.
He [American historian David Nasaw] has unearthed numerous documents that previous biographers had no access to or didn’t find, including a prenuptial agreement signed by Carnegie and his wife Louise Whitfield in April 1887 – which according to the historian is one of the first prenuptial documents ever made – and an 1885 letter the philanthropist wrote to British Prime Minister William Gladstone.
Both documents, Nasaw claims, prove that Carnegie planned to give away his fortune before the Homestead riots of 1892, when Carnegie’s attempt to break the union at his steel factory resulted in a bloody strike in which some of the workers died.
Nasaw said: “The general notion is that Carnegie gave away money to either rescue a failing reputation after Homestead and/or assuage his guilt for Homestead. This was certainly the opinion of his numerous critics on both sides of the Atlantic.
“What I’m sure of is that they [his previous biographers] didn’t understand – as I do because of my discovery of the 1885 letter to Gladstone and the 1887 prenuptial – that Carnegie had decided to give his money away long before Homestead and his retirement.” [4].
I hope that helps. --Colin Angus Mackay 11:41, 6 May 2005 (UTC)


For a succinct description of the Homestead Lockout, in which Frick did all the dirty work with Carnegie's blessing, see the section "Henry Clay Frick and Andrew Carnegie", in American Monsters : 44 rats, blackhats, and plutocrats, edited by Jack Newfield and Mark Jacobson (2004: Thunder's Mouth Press). Denison908 (talk) 23:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)Denison908

Wife and family?

Wife and daughters' names aren't mentioned...

Wife's name was Louise Whitfield, and daughter's name was Margaret (added into article) --Djamund 14:39, 13 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Could someone please address the pronunciation of his name? I believe it's karNAYggee, but one often hears KARnuhggee.Rockhopper10r 15:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

As a Scot, I would (roughly) agree with your first pronunciation. We say it (approximately) car-Nay-gay (but all-run-together). I cannot comment on how Americans or others may pronounce it, but it is highly likely that Carnegie himself used the Scottish pronunciation.--Mais oui! 20:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
As another Scot, I'd agree with that pronounciation. --Colin Angus Mackay 00:06, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
For American pronunciation, I believe it is "Car-NAY-Gee". But since his last name is not English the true pronunciation might be the one that they listed above. 24.8.205.77 04:48, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
My personal, American, opinion is that it is pronounced KARnuhggee as mentioned above. I've heard that a lot more often than I've heard karNAYggee. Amalas 14:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I think in Scotland it is pronounced Kar-negg-ee, but certainly in the U.S., references to Carnegie Hall always seem to be pronounced Kar-nugg-ee. Legis 08:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Anyone want to have a go at putting this in International Phonetic Alphabet? It would help for clearing this up. I also don't know if there's a way to link to a sound file which will "speak" the correct pronunciation, but if possible, that would be nice too! Isoxyl 15:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
As an American, Pittsburgher, and student at Carnegie Mellon University.... There is no consensus, but most locals say Car-neggy. And this absolutely does not belong in the Trivia section. It belongs next to his name at the beginning, or not at all, and it belongs in IPA. It also belongs wherever it goes along with a citation. The present blurb in the trivia section is utterly unsupported, and very few of the people around here say that. Greyscale 11:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

What's important, I think, is how it's pronounced in America today, since he is an American philanthropist and his name is attached to American institutions. Having said that, the pronunciations put forth by Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary (/kɑɹ'nɛgi/ or /'kɑɹnʌgi/) are both correct. I will insert it after his last name at the beginning of the article if there are no objections. DeeKenn 04:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

It also depends on what's being named after him, what the convention is. It's KAR-nagee hall, but the kar-NEY-gee corporation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tyrannophobe (talk • contribs) 18:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Added IPA pronunciation per above paragraph. For style use of back to back parentheses, please advise. DeeKenn 12:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikification

This article is in a bit of a mess. Has someone been adding vast screeds recently? It is far too long, not split up into readable sections, and where on earth did all the linking go? It needs some gentle, loving wikification.

And I cannot help but say that some of the language used is ridiculous: it seems to me that someone has been copying huge chunks verbatim out of some very old text. I don't remember the article being this bad the last time I read it about a month ago.--Mais oui! 22:35, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, some editor added a huge portion about Carnegie's life. I did a cursory search on google to try and see if it was copyvio from some other site, but couldn't find anything. --Syrthiss 14:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I did the same. I have posted a question on the users talk page (User:82.22.86.199). -- Mwanner | Talk 14:48, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Hagiography

I started doing some editing to this article but had to stop because it is far too biased in his favour. The language clearly isn't neutral at all, and, likely, neither are the facts. Stearnsbrian 06:22, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Later Personal Life

It seems odd to me that the Later Personal Life section is listed after his death, but I'm not sure where else it should go. Amalas 14:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The Philippines

okay you guys. we need "dirt" on this guy for class. EDIT!!

In 1898, Andrew Carnegie offered $20 million USD to the US government to "buy" the Philippines so he can give the Philippines its independence. He was an opponent of US imperialism. In what section in the article can we put this fact? Hong Qi Gong 21:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

No suggestions? Hong Qi Gong 23:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

OOPS - that would be $20 Million USD. Not $20 USD. Anyway, if nobody else is interested in adding this bit of information, I'll try to come up with something myself. - Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Self made man?

First he makes $2.50 a week, then $4.00 a week, ok. A couple of paragraphs later he invests $40.000 in a farm. Where did this money come from? Was he really a self made man? Geir Gundersen 12:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Response: He had help in investing his money from his mentor at the pennsylvanian railroad company, Thomas A. Scott. His mother gave her house as an security, and he was able to invest $500 very profitable in a firm called Adams Express in 1855. Later he reinvested his money in sleeping wagons for the prc and bought part of the company making the wagons, which turned out again a very profitable investment. This money was used then to invest in iron and bridge companies, and finally he founded companies for making railwaybridges, rails and locomotives.Joost 99 10:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

IPA

From Trivia: "His name is pronounced Car-negie (like car-negg-ie...accent on second syllable)not Carniigiie"

Could someone who knows IPA add a pronunciation key after his name so we can remove this? --Daniel Olsen 22:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

28-March-2007: The IPA code has been added to the pronunciation text; however, I have re-added phonetic quotes ("car-NEGG-ee") as easier for "normal people" to understand. The IPA code, although great for a perfect world, is more geared for expert linquists (linguistic experts) than typical readers; plus, the IPA characters won't even display by default on all screens. As if the unprintable nature of IPA-code characters weren't bad enough, those codes are unicode characters, which can cause text to be stored double in size just to save those few IPA characters. So, an article that would be 41kb might store as 82kb, just because 20 bytes of IPA unicode are present. However, IPA codes are included for a limited audience, just as mathematical equations and chemical formulas are included in some Wikipedia articles. -Wikid77 13:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

When and why did he move to the US?

I don't see any discussion on his motive and time for moving to the US. Please add. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.235.12.85 (talk) 08:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

Verification

28-March-2007: The article on "Andrew Carnegie" was not protected from unregistered edits in March 2007, so beware changed details, especially for birthdate/birthplace. As a "Bill Gates" of his era, Carnegie is a likely target, and "a rich man's jokes are always funny" so neutral facts are hard to establish. For verification, the intro paragraphs should reflect the following details:

Andrew Carnegie (November 25, 1835 – August 11, 1919) was a Scottish-American industrialist, businessman, a major and widely respected philanthropist, and the founder of the Carnegie Steel Company which later became U.S. Steel. Carnegie [pronounce[1]] is known for having built one of the most powerful and influential corporations in United States history, and, later in his life, giving away most of his riches to fund the establishment of many libraries, schools, and universities in Scotland, America, and worldwide. Carnegie, a poor boy with fierce ambition, a pleasant personality, and devoted to both hard work and self-improvement, started as a telegrapher. By the 1860s, he had investments in railroads, railroad sleeping cars, as well as bridges and oil derricks, and he built wealth as a bond salesman raising money in Europe for American enterprises. Steel was where he found his fortune. In the 1870s, he founded the Carnegie Steel Company, a step which cemented his name as one of the “Captains of Industry”. By the 1890s, the company was the largest and most profitable industrial enterprise in the world. He sold it to J.P. Morgan's US Steel in 1901 and devoted the remainder of his life to large-scale philanthropy, with special emphasis on local libraries, world peace, and scientific research.

If details in the lede section of the article differ significantly from the above text, it might have been quietly vandalized. Temptation to botch an article is high in the first few sentences. -Wikid77 12:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation footnote

28-March-2007: I have moved the pronunciation of "Carnegie" (from Trivia) into a footnote, linked in the top paragraph, adding the Scottish sound. Pronunciation is a top-level issue, but the extra detail with IPA codes, is best handled as a footnote aside. The footnote reads:
Carnegie's name is pronounced with the accent on the second syllable, "car-NEGG-ee" (/kɑɹˈnɛɡi/), not on the first, although "Carnegie Hall" is often pronounced as "CAR-neg-ee" (hall). In Scotland, the name is similar to "car-Nay-gay" (rhymes with "May-day").
Along with the IPA coding, the phonetic quotes are shown as more likely to be understood by many people. Similar to BNF coding in computer work, the IPA codes are too esoteric/arcane and abstract for "normal people" although IPA is great for formally defining subtle spoken variations.
Being an issue of American sophistication, pronunciations are typically addressed discretely, in a private conversation. In American "polite" society, a misspoken word would be politely ignored, then explained afterward, in private. In American writing, littering text with pronunciations is a potential insult to the intelligence of the reader, so the detailed pronunciation-footnote is a happy medium to handle a range of novices, amateurs, and sophisticates. Plus, a footnote has space to address a range of pronunciations, which is even beyond the scope of a typical dictionary entry limited to a small phrase about pronouncing a word. Although appearing as a trivial concept, footnotes are excellent text-technology, analogous to a subroutine in computer programming (but that's another subject). In general, footnotes can store statements typically piled into a Trivia section, and tie each "trivial" statement into one (or more) related parts of the overall article. More at: IPA, above. -Wikid77 11:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Just Scottish?

Didn't Andrew ever become an American citizen at some point in his life? If so, presumably, he should be described as Scottish-American (which one of the categories this article falls under seems to indicate) or a Scottish-born American or somesuch, not just Scottish. He did move to the country at the age of thirteen, after all, and seemed to identify himself with the US throughout most of his life and career. 69.0.36.23 05:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You are correct. Per MOSBIO I will change that. --Tom 18:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Wealth

The article states that Carnegie gave away $350,695,653, which it claims is the equivalent of approximately $4.3 billion, adjusted to 2005 figures, and that he had $30,000,000 remaining which he willed away. The List of most wealthy historical figures article, to which this article links, states that Carnegie's wealth was equivalent to $127.3 billion adjusted to 2006 figures. The inflation rate in the article seems quite low. What's correct? Stearnsbrian 22:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)...... who cares?

GA Sweeps (delisted)

In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. While all the hard work that has gone into this article is appreciated, unfortunately, as of November 15,

2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GAR. Ruslik 13:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

1) The article lackes inline citations for almost all facts including quotations and numbers.

2) The article contains too many stubby paragraphs, which should be merged.

Ruslik 13:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Nonsensical sentence?

There is a sentence in the Philosophy section that reads "Carnegie believed that achievement of financial failed could be reduced to a simple formula, which could be duplicated by the average person". It doesn't appear to make any sense - what is it supposed to say? Richerman (talk) 13:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Quick edit

Edited out a thrash paragraph accusing Carnegie of being a male prostitue, active from 1910 to 1940. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.217.77.192 (talk) 18:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

IPA

Called the Carnegie Museum and the Pennsylvania dept. of the Carnegie Library in Pittsburgh. Both said it's /kɑrˈneɪgi/, not /kɑrˈnɛgi/. The library said their source is the second president, Samuel Hardin Church. kwami (talk) 17:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikisource

The box with the other projects doesn't lead directly to the Wikisource material, as the material there is filed with the title beginning "author" rather than just Carnegie's name. I don't know how to resolve this and have added a separate Wikisource box.--Alan (talk) 09:55, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Place of birth

Having been reverted, I have restored Dunfermline, Fife, United Kingdom which is congruent with (place of death) Lenox, Massachusetts, United States. Chrisieboy (talk) 12:18, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

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