Talk:Augustine of Hippo

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For more information, visit the project page. Biography portal B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ] Core This article is listed on this project's core biographies page. More information about this article... The following comments have been left for this page: needs citations plange 02:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC) Augustine did NOT "believe in Papal supremacy", as claimed in the article and "supported" by reference #3. A carefull reading of this reference will demonstrate that he linked the "True" Church to being in COMMUNION WITH Rome, rather than SUBJECT TO Rome. Also, a reading of "Optaremus", the letter sent by the African bishops to Rome, explicitly tells Rome that the Pope's juristiction does not extend the African provincial matters; he should not try to reach that far, lest the pride of worldly power come to infect the Church. These and other references such as the Enchiridion, if read in their own context instead of through the glasses of later ages, clearly show that Augustine held the Unity of the Church to consist in being what St. Paul describes as "A Body that builds itself up in Love", and not in being an organisation based on power, juristiction, supremacy or subordination. Indeed, it might cheekily be said that Augustine would judge that present-day Rome (and all other denominations that refuse to be in communion with other churches) thereby declare ithemselves schismatic! The Augustinian "True" church is the church that is in the broadest possible communion, which is the original meaning of the word "Catholic" ("Kat' holos" = "According to the Whole"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.42.142.2 (talk) 03:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC) (edit) WikiProject Philosophy      (Rated B-Class) Philosophy portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Philosophy, which collaborates on articles related to philosophy. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details. B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. Low This article has been rated as low-importance on the importance scale. Additional information: Related task forces (major fields): Philosophers Related task forces (periods): Medieval philosophy WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome     (Rated B-Class) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome. 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If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines. B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale. Assessment comments The following comments were left by the assessors: (edit · refresh) needs citations plange 02:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC) Augustine did NOT "believe in Papal supremacy", as claimed in the article and "supported" by reference #3. A carefull reading of this reference will demonstrate that he linked the "True" Church to being in COMMUNION WITH Rome, rather than SUBJECT TO Rome. Also, a reading of "Optaremus", the letter sent by the African bishops to Rome, explicitly tells Rome that the Pope's juristiction does not extend the African provincial matters; he should not try to reach that far, lest the pride of worldly power come to infect the Church. These and other references such as the Enchiridion, if read in their own context instead of through the glasses of later ages, clearly show that Augustine held the Unity of the Church to consist in being what St. Paul describes as "A Body that builds itself up in Love", and not in being an organisation based on power, juristiction, supremacy or subordination. Indeed, it might cheekily be said that Augustine would judge that present-day Rome (and all other denominations that refuse to be in communion with other churches) thereby declare ithemselves schismatic! The Augustinian "True" church is the church that is in the broadest possible communion, which is the original meaning of the word "Catholic" ("Kat' holos" = "According to the Whole"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.42.142.2 (talk) 03:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC) WikiProject Lutheranism     (Rated B-Class) Augustine of Hippo is part of WikiProject Lutheranism, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Lutheranism on Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to Lutheran churches, Lutheran theology and worship, and biographies of notable Lutherans. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale. 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Archive 1 Archive 2

Junk

The "In the arts" section seems to be dross and offal.Lestrade (talk) 17:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

Dross AND offal. Well excuse me, Mr. SAT.

Also, it would probably be better to say that Augustine promoted the Christian faith rather than the "Catholic" faith as the article states. Most westerners (therefore english speakers) would interpret this as referring to Roman Catholicism, which did not exist as a separate church at this time in history. Yes, I know that Catholic is technically correct from and Orthodox Christian standpoint, but the majority of readers will not know that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.249.246.78 (talk) 04:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I think 'Catholic' is used here in opposition to the various Christian heresies that existed (Arianism, Pelagianism, Donatism). 'Christian' would in this case be too general. Maybe the term 'orthodox' could better be used in this sense. Iblardi (talk) 13:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Seconded. While the average person seems to take for granted that Western Christianity was a monolithic faith until the Protestant Reformation, in Augustine's time this was far from the case, with entire bishoprics, kingdoms and principalities under the sway of Arianism or other heretical churches. Also, wikipedia should not be dumbed down; using a less correct term on the rationale that to use the correct term would confuse "the average person" is an abomination. Wormwoodpoppies (talk) 00:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Orthodox were not separate at this time, though I suppose that there is nothing wrong with the generic term "Orthodox Christians" to describe the entire church. Do the Eastern Orthodox object to their being described as "Christians?" I did not know that. While Arianism held sway for awhile it did not "officially" survive Nicea. I don't think other beliefs eventually described as "heresies" ever got quite the traction that Arianism did. So the church was fairly monolithic in belief (multiple patriarchs) until the 800 breakup. Even that was governmental/political, not really belief-oriented.

When I describe the American Democratic Pary, I describe them as favoring Obama. I do not allow for the minority who still support Clinton or some other candidate. It's becoming a little too PC to describe a group based on its minorities instead of what most of its adherents subscribe to. Some Americans support the American Nazi Party I suppose but I wouldn't waste a lot of space trying to contort the article on the United States to fit that particular group to "ensure they weren't overlooked." Student7 (talk) 12:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Name in Greek

Is there any particular reason to include this in the lead? The Latin makes sense, as it was his language, and is the language of the Western Church. But he is not one of the four Eastern doctors, my copy of Confessions says he was not fluent in Greek, he did not write in Greek, and he spent his time in Italy and North Africa. Any objections if I remove his name in Greek from the lead? Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:05, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Fine with me. He's a Latin daddy-o  ;-> Thanks. HG | Talk 19:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Done :) Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism: fake claims of 'Berber' ancestry

I've never looked at this page, but I do look at the Tertullian page. That had a strange entry that he was 'Berber', backed up by strange references. Now I know for a fact that there is no evidence of this for Tertullian at all. Now, on this page, I see precisely the same intrusion here, backed by a long list of general references, many of them the same. Yet as far as I know again there is no evidence of this for Augustine. I think we have a vandal at work, probably on all pages by ancient authors of North Africa (I've just walked around all those I could think of, and found exactly that). I've therefore deleted the bogus claim and its bogus references. No doubt at least some of these Romans did have Berber connections, but until we have proper referenced evidence of this, and in view of the actions of the vandal, I think that we must treat all such stuff with suspicion. Roger Pearse 09:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, it isn't totally bogus on this page. The Oxford World Classics edition of Confessions, has in a note on page xiii "Her name, spelt by Augustine Monnica, is probably Berber, and perhaps both parents were ethnically Berber." Obviously this is a tentative suggestion in a footnote, but it at least shows that Augustine as a Berber isn't total bs. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Roger Pearse removed the following source (quotation from encyclopedia Americana) in many article (Augustine, Apuleius, ... ): "Berbers : ... The best known of them were the Roman author Apuleius, the Roman emperor Septimius Severus, and St. Augustine, whose mother was a Berber". However, even if you dont have access to Encyclopedia Americana, it is very easy to check that the source is perfectly valid. Just type between quotations marks "Augustine, whose mother was a Berber" in Google books and you will find it in page 569, v.3... So Roger Pears is the vandal.--Frenchman17 (talk) 18:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Do not call someone who took the time to discuss this on the talk page a vandal. You created your account simply in reaction to this, and will probably contribute nothing more to WP. He had a reasonable question and addressed it on the talk page. You have done a good job addressing his questions, but you may not in good faith call him a vandal. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Sorry for that... But I think we should always discuss before removing anything from articles especially when valid sources are specified.--Frenchman17 (talk) 19:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Well it's all straightened out now, thank you for providing all the sources you did. WE all got through it using the talk page. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that's very unfair. Pearse used the word "vandalism" first, and repeatedly. See Talk:North Africa during the Classical Period#Berber vandalism, noting particularly the date and time. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 22:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Pearse made an accusation of vandalism against an unknown user from the past, who seems not to have discussed the edits on the talk page, whereas an entirely new user, Frenchman, accused a well-established editor who had discussed the issue on the talk page of vandalism. They are entirely different scenarios. And Sam, you need to learn how use talk page discussions. You need to properly indent and place your posts for the ease of anyone who might read the talk page. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with you on all points. However, there is no benefit in continuing this sterile argument. I'd be interested in what Roger Pearse has to say now. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 09:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Berber ancestry

Sorry but it is NOT bogus at all...

A lot of french historians internationally renowned like Henri Irénée Marrou, Étienne Gilson, Fernand Braudel, Louis Chevalier and many others specialist of Roman Africa like Claude Lepelley, Serge Lancel, André Berthier etc say he was berber. The same for many famous french theologians like Guy Bedouelle...

Some quotations (sorry they are in french - I can translate them if necessary):

• Henri Irénée Marrou : "Théologien, j'ai appris de mon maître saint Augustin, ce Berbère, que toutes les nations qui se manifestent dans l'histoire sont nécessairement un mélange, pour nous inextricable, de Cité du Bien et de Cité du Mal." (Henri Irénée Marrou, Crise de notre temps et réflexion chrétienne de 1930 à 1975, éd. Beauchesne, 1978, p. 177)

• Étienne Gilson : "Presque tous les Pères latins sont des Africains. Tertullien de Carthage, le Numide Arnobe de Sicca et son élève Lactance, saint Cyprien de Carthage, Victorinus l'Africain, le Berbère saint Augustin, bref toute cette glorieuse tête de colonne de la patristique latine [...], que de dons splendides de l'Afrique à l'Eglise de Rome pendant que celle-ci n'avait encore à mettre en balance que saint Ambroise et saint Jérôme !" (Étienne Gilson, Le philosophe et la théologie (1960), éd. Vrin, 2005, p. 175-176)

This book was translated in english :

• Etienne Gilson : "Nearly all the Latin Fathers are Africans - Tertullian of Carthage, the Numid Arnobius of Sicca and his pupil Lactantius, Saint Cyprian of Carthage, the African Marius Victorinus, the Berber Saint Augustine, in short, all this glorious vanguard of Latin patristic culture. What splendid gifts these were from Africa to the Church of Rome while the latter had only the works of Saint Ambrose and of Saint Jerome to put in the Balance ! " (Etienne Gilson, The Philosopher and Theology (1960)], Random House New York, 1962, pp.195-196 )

• Louis Chevalier : "Les fondateurs de la première littérature chrétienne ont été Tertullien et ce pur berbère Saint-Augustin" ( Louis Chevalier, Le problème démographique nord-africain (1947),Presses universitaires de France, 1947, p. 194)

• Charles Nicolle : "Il a fallu des siècles pour que l'Afrique romaine offre à l'humanité un Apulée, un saint Augustin et un Septime Sévère; les deux premiers de sang berbère", (Charles Nicolle, Biologie de l'invention (1932), Alcan, 1932, p. 25)

• Guy Bedouelle : "But it was the African, the Berber Augustine, bishop of Hippo ...", (Guy Bedouelle, The History of the Church, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2003, p.52)

• Fernand Braudel, probably the most renowned french historian, :"Berbère, né en 354 à Tagaste, en Africa, il mourra évêque d'Hippone en 430..." (Fernand Braudel, Grammaire des civilisations (1963), Flammarion, 2008, p. 453)

Translated in english in 1993 :

• Fernand Braudel :"A Berber, born in 354 at Thagaste (now Souk-Ahras) in Africa, he died Bishop of Hippo..." (Fernand Braudel, A History of Civilizations , Penguin , 1995, p. 335) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchman17 (talk • contribs) 08:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• Grand Larousse encyclopédique : "Augustin, one of the most famous Fathers of the Church, was of Berber descent.", (Grand Larousse encyclopédique, Librairie Larousse, 1960, vol. 1, Afrique romaine, p. 144) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchman17 (talk • contribs) 09:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

etc

About non French authors (English, German...) I am not a specialist (but Roman Africa has not been studied a lot by english authors) but I can say that many famous authors like Norman Cantor, Irving Hexham, Friedrich Heer etc and even Encyclopedia Americana say he was berber

• Friedrich Heer : "Nor was it coincidental that Thomas resurrected Tertullian the Berber in an attempt to subdue that other Berber, Augustine...", (Friedrich Heer, The Intellectual History of Europe, Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1966, p.153

• Norman Cantor : "Augustine was an outsider - a native North African whose family was not Roman but Berber" (Norman Cantor, The Civilization of the Middle Ages, Harper, 1993, p. 74)

• Martin Evans, Professor in Contemporary European History, at University of Portsmouth, specialist of Algeria : "Son of a Berber mother, the deeply commited Monica", (Martin Evans & John Phillips, Algeria, Yale University Press, 2007 ,p.15)

• Donald Burt, O.S.A., Ph.D of Villanova University : "Monica his mother was almost certainly a Berber and his father was probably a mixture of Berber and Roman ancestry" ( Saint Augustine: His Life and Times etc

• Margaret R. Miles, Dean of the Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley : "Monica : Mother of Augustine. A Berber North African woman, Monica is known to us only in the writings of her eldest son, Augustine...", (Everett Ferguson, Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, 1998, p.776)

• Encyclopedia Americana : "Berbers : ... The best known of them were the Roman author Apuleius, the Roman emperor Septimius Severus, and St. Augustine whose mother was a Berber" (Encyclopedia Americana, Scholastic Library Publishing, 2005, v.3, p.569 )

• Irving Hexham, professor of Religious Studies at the University of Calgary : "Augustine was of Berber descent...", (Concise Dictionary of Religion, Regent College Press, Vancouver, 1993, p.26)

I could fill the page with dozens of quotations but I dont think it is necessary ...--Frenchman17 (talk) 13:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Seems pretty persuasive. See also: "A Note on the Berber background in the life of Augustine" by Maurice Frost, Journal of Theological Studies 1942 XLIII(171-172):188-194 by Oxford University Press. Thanks. HG | Talk 03:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Calling Mary the "Mother of God"

The historian, Philip Schaff says:

"He also contributed to promote, at least in his later writings, the Catholic faith of miracles, and the worship of Mary; though he exempts the Virgin only from actual sin, not from original, and, with all his reverence for her, never calls her mother of God."- History of the Christian Church, vol 3, chap 10, section 180, 6th paragraph.

Schaff is generally regarded as a very scholarly and unbiased historian, however, he was writing over a century ago. Is there any documentary evidence that Augustine ever used the phrase "mother of God" of Mary? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blkgardner (talk • contribs) 18:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC) --Blkgardner (talk) 18:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Bizarre religion?

"During this time, Augustine was a devout follower of Manichaeism, a religion based on many tradtions and strange fantasies. It is curious that an intelligent man such as Augustine would follow a religion as bizarre as Manichaeism" -- um any religion is bound to be "bizarre" to someone? Mvuijlst (talk) 19:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that is totally inappropriate tone for this article. I checked out the source on that paragraph, and it is a personal website. It is referenced, but it among its sources is WP. So, that seems to me to fail the RS req's, so I removed any dubious material attached to that source, as well as the refs. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I would like to clear up one thing that is constantly wrong

Augustine did not start of Catholic. He was a Pagan like his father Patricius and later went to Manichaeism in his schooling then when he went to rome and milan in italy he was temped to convert to christianity but he didn't he then went to Neoplatinism and finnaly before he left italy to go back to his home land he met Ambrose and then he converted to christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.39.2.35 (talk) 02:55, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Papal Supremacy

Augustine (despite the referece #45) did NOT hold that the Pope had a "Supreme Jurisdiction" over the church, as in the modern meaning of "Papal Supremacy". "Optaremus", a reply by the African Bishops to a "ruling" by the Pope, is quite pointed, even insulting, in telling the Pope to stay out of the affairs of other provinces. This makes it clear that the Pope's "supremacy" is not one of jurisdiction, but rather a primacy of honour. This is even more pointed when viewed against his ecclesiology as argued against the Donatists.

58.178.76.5 (talk) 03:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC) gnomine

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