Talk:Boudica

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Contents

Issues

Nice job! tanx buddy Two things - the location of the Iceni territory (more or less), would be handy; and what happened to the daughters? I only vaguely remember that their rape and or otherwise outraging was a contributing factor. --MichaelTinkler

in the bit about (paraphrasing) "retreating soldiers prevented from fleeing by their families", it's written a little bit ambiguously: presumably it means that the families were physically crowding the way. Alternately, it could mean that their families refused to allow them to leave, urging them to stay and fight. Since I don't know the right answer, I won't clean it up.

I've rewritten that bit - it should be a bit clearer now. --Nicknack009 16:56, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Everyone is a bit ambiguous about the exact dates involved. Is it really not known for sure exactly when Boudicca was defeated? Would the fact that it's descibed as 60/61 suggest that it was around the turn of the year? - Jayem

No, it's pretty clear from Tacitus that the revolt started in the spring or summer (campaigning season) and was defeated before the start of winter. Dates from Britain in this period have been worked out by counting up the years served by each governor. There's a one year margin for error because it's not clear whether Quintus Veranius died within twelve months of being appointed, or within the calendar year of his appointment. --Nicknack009 18:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have cross referenced the bit of trivial about Boudicca and platform 9-3/4 Kings Cross station from the Harry Potter page. --Andrew Grimmke

Yes it is true that it was started in spring but on the Roman calendar the year starts in March so it would be the March of 62 C.E but then considered the turn of the year. -Royal Russell 9:54 PM, 8/31/2005

It's true that the Roman calendar started in March, but the dates in question aren't based on the original Roman calendar. The relavant historians (Tacitus and Dio Cassius) used the consuls to identify the year, and the consuls took office on 1 January, so events they describe are dated retrospectively using a January-December year. However, Tacitus isn't entirely annalistic when dealing with Britain in his Annals, but often sums up a period of several years at an appropriate place in the overall narrative, and Dio Cassius's account comes from an epitome which doesn't mention the consuls, hence having to count up years served by governors. The rebellion (or at least the build-up) started before seed-time, as Tacitus says the Britons had neglected to sow their crops, hoping to seize Roman grain, so it could have started before March and therefore in the calendar year of 59 or 60 and ended at the start of winter 60 or 61. By the turn of 62 it would have been all over, and Suetonius Paulinus would have been carrying out his punitive operations. --Nicknack009 19:18, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Now on to a different subject: MichaelTinkler you said you had a bit of trouble with under standing where Iceni is. Well Iceni is the bump sticking out just above Kent, which is modern-day Norwich. And her daughters, Cammora and Tasca probaly poisoned themselves with Boudicca. -Royal Russell, 9:31 PM, 9/28/2005

That "bump sticking out" is in fact East Anglia, comprising the counties of Norfolk and Suffolk. Norwich is the main city in Norfolk..... 192.30.202.16 16:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)Vivien Shiers

OMG! I just re-read what I wrote back more than a year ago! I feel really dumb! "bump sticking out?" How could I be so air-headed? Anyway I go by a different name now rather than Royal Russell. User:Jim Bart 04:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Roman forces outnumbered, or Boudica's forces?

In the second paragraph, this caught my attention: "Roman emperor Nero briefly considered withdrawing Roman forces from the island, but ultimately Boudica was defeated at the Battle of Watling Street by the heavily outnumbered forces of Roman provincial governor Gaius Suetonius Paulinus." (bold added for emphasis)

Is this correct? Were the Roman forces outnumbered, or were Boudica's forces outnumbered? I didn't edit it, since I don't know the facts, but it makes more sense if Boudica's forces were outnumbered, not the Roman forces. Can someone look into this and make the necessary changes?70.17.38.39 17:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

According to the History Channel special airing 3/26/06 - Boudica's forces outnumbered the Roman forces. However, her forces were more 'savage' and not highly trained nor protected like the Roman forces, hence the loss.

Boudiccas forces outnumbered the Romans by about 20 to 1.--Andy mci 17:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Brythonic Celtic?

In the first paragraph the text explicitly states that she was the ruler of the "Brythonic Celtic Iceni". I think this need to be less emphatic as there is a growing level of support for the idea that the pre-roman people of Eastern Britain were not in any way Celtic. Now there are theories that they might have been "Germanic" but there is strong genetic evidence of cultural and ethnic difference between the east a west in Britain.

I just believe that this debate about the origin of the people of eastern Britain should be reflected and that theory and evidence has moved on.

As far as I know there is no evidence whatsoever of Germanic language in pre-Roman or early Roman Britain, and plenty for Celtic. Odd that the anti-Celticists will emphasise archaeological continuity when it suits them, and archaeological difference when it suits them, to deny Celtic influence in Britain. The evidence - some genetic but no linguistic evidence for Germanic presence in south-eastern Britain - suggests that Caesar was right all along, and the Belgae - Celtic-speakers with some Germanic roots - settled there in the 2nd/1st century BC! --Nicknack009 21:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

"Early life" section

This section is largely rubbish. The bit about her family being well-off is okay, and the roundhouse is reasonable supposition, but there's no evidence that the (medieval Irish) practice of fostership was practiced in Britain (and the purpose of it in Ireland was more about political patronage than "learning how to be sociable"). The bit about "warrior school" and the date of her marriage are simply invented. This is not history and does not belong in an encyclopedia. Cite sources or it should be removed. --Nicknack009 19:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Age?

Ok now how old would Prasutagus be at his death? What was the normal age for a Icenian Briton at the time? Or any Briton?

Prasutagus's age at death is not given in any of the sources, therefore nobody knows. It's not even known that, as is often assumed, he died in 60. The account of the conspiracy to rebel given in Agricola suggests that discontent had been building for some time, so he could easily have died, and the Iceni lands been annexed, quite a number of years previously. Stats for average life expectancy in Britain at the time don't exist, so any attempt to give a figure would only be guesswork. --Nicknack009 23:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
A lot of history is only guesses. Poserlkg

Boudica's name

I am just a casual reader, but I noticed an error near the top of this article - was Prasutagus her husband or her father? I guess it is possible they both had the name, but not likely. An edit is needed here.

The article doesn't say Prasutagus was her father, but I can see it how might be taken to mean that. I've clarified it. --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


The article states that: "Kenneth Jackson concludes that the correct spelling of the name is Boudica, pronounced /bəʊ'diː.ka:/, although it is mispronounced by many as /buː.dik'ə/"

However, the stress markings are in the wrong place for IPA transcriptions: I assume the contributor meant /'bəʊdiː.kaː/ (with stress on the 1st syllable) and /buː'dɪkə/ (with stress on the 2nd syllable) respectively. However, I've never heard the name being pronounced with stress on the 2nd syllable - it is usually pronounced "BOO-di-ka" (ie. /'buːdɪkə/).

Can anyone confirm the pronunciation before I edit the article? I particularly would like confirmation of Kenneth Jackson's pronunciation of the name (note that the system of transcription used in the book may place stress markings after the stressed syllable, rather than before it). Thanks, --Dave ~ (talk) 12:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

To quote the article in question:
"The philological fact is that the name must have been Boudica, pronounced in phonetic terminology /boudi:ka:/, in 'English' spelling it would be ' Bowdeekah ', where ow means the dipthong seen in e.g. the phrases 'tie a bow' or 'bow and arrow', and the stressed syllable is the dee, with long vowel, the final a being also long. The generally accepted Boudicca is probably (and incorrectly) pronounced by most people as /budikə/, or, in popular spelling, ' Boodikka '."
Don't know how that would be best rendered in IPA, but hopefully it should help you. --Nicknack009 17:08, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I corrected the article. --Dave ~ (talk) 20:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


Could some one explain to me how it should be pronounced instead of BOO-di-kah? is it Bee-oo-dik-ah? or what? sorry I'm an air-head (see above my comments made signed as "Royal Russell"). - signing off as the Drama King from Texas! 06:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The o and the u are pronounced separately, so it comes out as something like "bow" as in "bow-and-arrow". --Nicknack009 12:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I am from Colchester and I thought her name was Boudicca, pronouced BOO-di-ka. I am not sure what they say it is in the Castle Museum - I must find out. {Jake95 21:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)}

I was wrong. It is in fact Boudica. This spelling was used for ages before a Roman historian spelt it as Boudicca. Someone in the middle ages found it and mistook the o for an a and the second c for an e, hence the spelling Boadicea. (I got this information from a history textbook.) {Jake95 19:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)}
The historian = Tacitus. {Jake95 19:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)}

Picture

The article shows a picture of a statue of Emperor Claudius. I would say this belongs to another article, and this article about Boudica should show a picture of Boudica, if such is available. 84.112.148.111 07:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Iceni or Eceni?

I've reverted back to the spelling "Iceni" for now. It may be that "Eceni" is more accurate (but then again, Iron Age British coin spellings are pretty variable, particularly between E and I), but Wikipedia policy is that the best known version of a name should be used, and as far as I know the scholarly literature still uses "Iceni". My suggestion would be to find an authoritative scholarly work that supports the spelling "Eceni" as the more accurate one and edit the Iceni article accordingly (the way this one does with Kenneth Jackson and the spelling "Boudica"), and after that, roll out the change to this article and others. --Nicknack009 12:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you believe in ghosties?

At the end of the first paragraph in the "Other cultural references" sections is the line...

"As with all reports of ghostly activity, it is up to the individual to decide whether they are true or not."

This seems like a bit of a throw-away comment to me, so how about we throw it away? It seems like the author is trying to speak to me. It doesnt seem very "encyclopedic". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scowie (talk • contribs) 20:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC).


Location of her defeat

Dear me. The platform 10 of King's Cross site for Boudica's grave was based on an April Fool by a British Media organisaton. I'll see if I can find source for it before deleting the reference. 86.141.172.111 12:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/a-b/boud5.html Doesn't confirm the April Fool, but says categorically that there is no truth in the suggestion. I'm being bold. WillE 12:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The circumstances of her death are mostly speculative, I doubt there is much credence to the Train Station theory.

The location of the Metchley "Camp" (in fact, a series of Roman forts) is not "near" King's Norton in Birmingham. It is over two miles away, implying a rather large battlefield if the relevant theory is to be believed.EEye (talk) 01:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Recent edit reverted

Fabartus, I have reverted your edit to the opening of the article. Firstly, starting with "best known as Boadicea" is incorrect, as the correct name is now very well known and used in all sources from popular to scholarly. It is also bad practice to open with the incorrect name. Secondly, the year of her death is not certain (it was either 60 or 61, but Tacitus is not precise enough to allow us to plump for one or the other, as is discussed elsewhere on the talk page. Thirdly, the opening clarification bit is entirely unnecessary as the matter is discussed thoroughly in the article. --Nicknack009 15:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

One - why have you ignored the points above? Two - why have you duplicated pretty much the whole article in the introduction in the summary? Three - do you seriously think it's reasonable to edit a fully-referenced article on the basis of watching a TV programme? --Nicknack009 17:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Further corrections: Catus Decianus was not a proconsul. Tacitus says that Boudicca was flogged and her daughters raped, not that all three of them were flogged and raped. The "ambush" of the 9th legion is fiction - Tacitus gives no details of how it was defeated, just that it was defeated. Londinium was not yet the capital of Roman Britain. Tacitus makes no mention of the evacuation of Verulamium by Suetonius. If you are not prepared to read the sources, which are helpfully linked to in the footnotes, you have absolutely no business editing the article. --Nicknack009 17:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"Romans Rally" Innacuracy

I noticed an inaccuracy while reading this section. One line ("As the Phalanx advanced in a wedge formation") incorrectly states that the Romans fought in a phalanx formation. I won't take the time to explain why this is wrong unless anybody has objections. I have corrected the mistake. 24.6.14.215 01:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC) The documentary "The Roman war machine" states that after an early defeat to the Celts the Romans had to bribe the Celts to leave Rome. The Romans then completely changed their military tactics with smaller, more mobile but smaller groups of soldiers replacing phalanxes in case anyone was wondering. Sioraf (talk) 14:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Other Real People with the Name Boadicea, Boudicca etc.

Anyone feel like adding a paragraph about other real Boadiceas ? 86.140.146.134 16:51, 10 June 2007 (UTC) it is known that boudicca drank poison and died

Name on Statue

Does anyone know, is there a name on the statue that illustrates this article? I'm guessing that if there is, the name is more likely to be Boadicea than it is Boudica (unless the statue was produced in the late twentieth century, and in style it looks more likely to be late nineteenth). Works of art tend to retain the names given to them by the artist. If later scholarship finds new orthographies, the spelling of the original is nonetheless usually maintained. So if someone knows this statue (or lives nearby and can go take a squint at it)... If the statue is entitled Boadicea, I would suggest that the caption read "statue of Boadicea (Boudica)". Mddietz 20:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Spellingand pronunciation

User:Kwamikagami, I've tried to be as clear as I can. Jackson is not arguing what the name "would have become" (whatever that means), but what it actually was. He argues that the vowels of the first syllable are a dypthong consisting of an o sound followed by a u sound, which is similar to the "ow" in "bow-and-arrow" in English - but it's not əʊ, as it would be pronounced in BBC English/RP - the o is an o, not a schwa. It's definitely not aʊ, which is the vowel of "house". --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I wasn't sure if it was a contemporary pronunciation or modern. Makes a difference in which IPA key we link to, since the simplified one only works for fairly recent English. How does it look now? kwami (talk) 00:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
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