Talk:Charles Babbage

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Contents

January 2008

"His father's money allowed Charles to receive instruction from several schools "

What a ridiculously biased sentence. Can't you guys give up the marxist crap for a second ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.127.102.105 (talk) 04:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

wah? surely thats ANTI-Marxist if anything: "Babbage had a good education because of his father's money - therefore capitalism and nepotism are good." --86.135.178.151 (talk) 22:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Quote

Here's a wonderful Babbage quote that you may want to work in to the article somehow:

On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.

A google search will turn up zillions of hits on this, with several variants and almost no citations. My quotes.txt has a reference to http://www.hexatron.com/Bab/, which previously linked some good source material on this, but the page seems to be gone now. I posted a summary of what was once there to talk.origins, and you can see it on dejagoogle. -- B.Bryant


Should this article be turned into one concise article? Instead of 3? --User:Dgrant

Yes, definitely the articles should be merged. AxelBoldt 22:09 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

Okay, whoever decides to merge these, leave a note here... and I will do likewise. To prevent duplication of work. -- Dave

Arno seems to have done a very good job of merging them. AxelBoldt 17:17 Mar 7, 2003 (UTC)

Good work User:Arno! This article finally looks nice and clean.
Why, thank you, I'm blushing!! Arno

I just noticed there are a lot one line paragraphs in this article. Is it possible that someone could merge them? I'd rather someone else do it then me, since I don't know much about Babbage. --dave

Date and place of birth

It seems that there is quite a confusion regarding place and date of birth. Many resources are giving 26th December in 1791 many 26th December in 1792. Also place of birth is sometimes London and sometimes Teignmouth. However, I also found a source saying that the right date is 6th January 1792. Any clues? --Maros 23:16, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Chambers, Biographical Dictionary, puts his birth at 1792, place of birth "Totnes, Devon" (p. 71)

Yes I have found this same problem. Anyone who can, please check this site: Charles Babbage Biography and verify the information.

Its kinda interesting really... just look at his gravestone it says 1791. I wonder where the guy who carved this stone got the date from. Because if it's wrong... oops. -  6etonyourfeet (talk?) 09:04, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I think The Times publication year could be wrong because but both the nephew claiming (Dec 1791) and parish confirm the Jan 1791 date claimed by the parish. Also the timing of the recording if true has more credibility (assuming they made the recording on that date) than what the times admits they know little of his early hood. The information provided in this article is unsourced so blah. - 6etonyourfeet (talk?) 09:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I also think that section needs more citations and footnotes because its controversial. - 6etonyourfeet (talk?) 09:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I just now added citations to give more information about Babbage's year of birth. I deleted one reference to a web page since it gave nothing more than the Wikisource page. -- Astrochemist 14:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Babbage vs DE and AE articles

There is more detail about the difference engine and analytical engine in this main article than there is in the individual articles for them. I think the bulk of the project details (he hired so-and-so, he took a break to tour Europe, he quarrelled with so-and-so) all belong in the sub-articles. Right Now the Article shows a wrong death date... maybe you can verify that too... --Tysto 2005 July 9 18:41 (UTC)

Marriage & Children

How is it that his last child was born (1829) two years past his wife's death(1827)? Is there an error or missing data (e.g. 2nd wife, mistress, incest)? Dave Adams 15:04, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Most sources give the number of children as eight. It looks like the imposter is 'Timothy Grant Babbage' added by User:170.235.204.26 on the 13th Sep (diff). I've reverted the edits. If anyone has a source to the contrary, please add to this discussion and restore young master Tim to the list of offspring. -- Solipsist 18:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Am new here so I am adding this snippet of info. On the 1851 England Census, Charles Babbage had re-married a woman with the name of Susan, unfortunately I have not found her surname from marriage records and he was once again a widow by the time the 1861 census came round. I will try and find a surname to go with the name but it didn't seem appropriate to edit the main article which would only give a surname a vague year of birth and a possible place of birth. However on the 1871 census his son; Henry, was living with him and he was a Lieutenant Colonel, again not a great edal of info but I thought I would share it. Piltdown Man 23:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

The Charles Babbage, living in 1851 Chudleigh with his wife Susan and son Henry, was a Master Mason, born in Chudleigh, and so is not the subject of this article... Having said that, I can't find the real Charles Babbage in 1851. Ian Cairns 08:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Difference Engine No. 2

"Difference Engine No. 2", which was built in 1989-1991" Are those date correct? should't they be 1889 or something? Zaurus

No. It was built within the last two decades from Babbage's original plans. See Difference engine. DanielCristofani 03:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Here is an explanation of those cards written by Babbage himself in Life of a Philosopher: “This machine was also intended to employ several features subsequently used in modern computers, including sequential control, branching, and looping.” Not a bad call for someone who died in 1871. --Paul 07:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Didn't Electronics Boutique used to be called Babbage's many years ago, in honour of Charles Babbage? I distinctly remember purchasing a copy of Civilisation II from a store called Babbages (which was part of a chain) when I was on holiday in the US in the mid-90s (1995, I think). Anyone know anything about this, or is my memory playing tricks on me? - Commander Zulu

Tables

I understood Babbage built a device for calculating tables of interest payments, etc. used in banks. Is this true or do I have my facts mixed?

The original and primary purpose for his machines was to automatically calculate and print the huge tables of constants used in navigation and mathematics and astronomy and, yeah, banking. Because the hand-calculated ones that were then in use had many errors in them. He went so far as to devise a scheme for automatically printing a papier-mache type mold which could be used for directly casting the metal printing plates, to prevent transcription errors. But as far as I know, he never completed a full machine, only proof-of-concept working sections. Anyone know otherwise? DanielCristofani 17:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Charles Babbage

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 18:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Inventions

Has anyone got more detail about Babbages other inventions besides the calculating engines. They are always mentioned in passing, but I've seen no detailed descriptions, no pictures, no patent references. Anyone have access to primary Babbage references? --AGoon 09:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and deleted the floating sentence about other inventions in the computing section. One would be hard pressed to be able to associate the heliotrope with Babbage. His other inventions have been added under "other accomplishments". Thanks. Chauve-Souris, Brooklyn, NY

Someone needs to find a source for the claim that Babbage invented standard railroad gauge. I'm a hardcore train nut, and everything I have ever read on the development of standard gauge says it was invented by George Stephenson. Babbage's name has never shown up in any of my railroad books. MBTA3247 (talk) 05:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for picking that point up, it was supported by the BBC article cited, but is patent nonsense. My understanding is that standard gauge wasn't invented by anyone, but was a standard width used for horse drawn railways in the mining area where Stephenson began making railway engines. Babbage's connection with the Great Western makes it even more improbable, as he'd be more likely to support Brunel's broad gauge. The others also look improbable, so I've commented them out and expanded the opthalmoscope item on the basis of the other reference. Looks like we need a reference for the cow-catcher and dynamometer car :) . . dave souza, talk 09:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Commemoration

With this series of edits, IPAddressConflict (talk · contribs) deleted the Named after Babbage section and moved many of the items to Babbage (disambiguation). I've not checked through the missing items, but felt that a "Commemoration" section would be appropriate so will add a brief section pointing to the other page. .. dave souza, talk 18:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Death

I was reading through this article and found that it doesn't say when he died. Does anyone know this information? I know he died in 1871 but i dont know what day. This information needs to be put in. helping make wiki better- dagurlwonder 04:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Babbage's date of death is given in the first paragraph, and I just now added it in a second place. Readers also can see the date in the picture of his grave. The section on "Marriage, family ... " needs to be fleshed out by someone familiar with Babbage, or willing to do the research. - Astrochemist 00:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Explained the human computers comment.

I felt the phrase; "In Babbage’s time numerical tables were calculated by humans called ‘computers,'" could be confusing to a modern reader who might think "why would they name the people after a device that hadn't been invented yet?'" So I explicated it ("In Babbage’s time numerical tables were calculated by humans called ‘computers,’ meaning "one who computes.""), gave an example ("Much as a conductor is "one who conducts.""), and reinforced it in the next sentence with "At Cambridge he saw the high error rate of this human-driven process," emphasis mine.

I wasn't 100% sure of the example, but I figure it can't hurt and if other people think it too much, they can revert it. - Mattcolville 22:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Musings on vandalism

I wonder what it is that attracts such an amazing amount and variety of vandalism to this article on Charles Babbage. The vandalism seems much worse than that for the other Wikipedia scientific biographies I follow. I don't want to start a long discussion on this topic, but is there an easy answer or, better yet, a solution? - Astrochemist 16:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I've taken out the part of Eccentricities where he was trying to melt himself. I really do not believe it could happen, but please, if anyone has any references, then give them to us. It would truly be interesting if he was a pyro. --Bookinvestor 09:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Education

The section under education: "Trinity College, Cambridge in October 1810. He had read extensively in Leibniz, Lagrange, Simpson, and Lacroix and was seriously disappointed in the mathematical instruction available at Cambridge. In response, he, John Herschel, George Peacock, and several other friends formed the Analytical Society in 1812. Babbage, Hershell and Peacock were also close friends with future judge and patron of science Edward Ryan. Ultimately, Babbage and Ryan married sisters.[5]

In 1812 Babbage transferred to Peterhouse, Cambridge. He was the top mathematician at Peterhouse, but failed to graduate with honors. He instead received an honorary degree without examination in 1814." seems to haev been taken directly from www.charlesbabbage.net with no citation of this source.

Is this the case? or did www.charlesbabbage.net take this passage from wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gitrplaya4u (talk • contribs) 00:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Reference to "Babbage programming language"

I don't know if the reference to the article named "Babbage - The language of the future" really belongs here, or at least if it should be cited in another way. It's more sarcastic than satirical, and the proposed language is a parody. In the article, Babbage is described in the following way:

"As our namesake, we chose Charles Babbage, who died in poverty while trying to finish building the first computer. The new language is thus named after the first systems designer to go over budget and behind schedule."

It's kind of funny, but it's hardly a tribute to Babbage, and does certainly not belong in the same context as a reference to Ada the language. leifbk (talk) 09:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


Replica at Computer History Museum

The Computer History Museum will in two weeks display the Difference Machine. Is that replica the one issued by Nathan Myhrvold?

67.180.29.122 (talk) 08:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the answer to your question is yes. See here.

Babbage's work did not lead to modern computing

At least, as I understand it, his work was largely overlooked, and modern developments (from the 1930s) came about independently. It's only recently that what he did has been appreciated. eg. see here.

Therefore, I want to amend the early statement in the article: "Babbage is credited with inventing the first mechanical computer that eventually led to more complex designs." Any objections? Earthlyreason (talk) 12:04, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Can you quantify "only recently" in this context? I've known about Babbage's work as significant to the field of computing for 20 years at least. It might be appropriate to change that wording slightly; can you find a reference to quote so that such a change would not be challenged?  Frank  |  talk  13:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Also Earthlyreason, what would you change it to? Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 20:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, his significance has been appreciated for several decades at least, so perhaps 'recently' was a poor choice. The point is that his work was only seen for what it was after the creation of working computers, as I understand it - though perhaps fairly quickly (1980s?) since the man himself was never forgotten. The reference I gave [1] is a good start, and this from the Science Museum supports what I'm saying:
The movement to automate mathematical calculation in the nineteenth century failed and the impetus to continue this work was largely lost with Babbage’s death. From the vantage point of the modern computer age we are better placed to appreciate the full extent to which Babbage was indeed the first pioneer of computing. [2]
Maybe this whole aspect of being overlooked deserves a paragraph or two.
Earthlyreason (talk) 03:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

After some brief further research, it does seem that the question of how much direct influence Babbage's work had is in debate, and this article should reflect that.

We should not confuse two issues here: 1) whether Babbage’s work informed 20th century developments 2) whether he was recognised for it, before recent times

Counter-views: [Babbage and Ada’s work] delineated the components that were to be adopted in subsequent machines. These … were ultimately to lead to the development of electronic computing systems in the following century.[3]

This review of Swade’s book criticises its appreciation of Babbage's contributions to the development of modern computing machine [4]

It is only recently that [Ada’s] contribution to the development of modern computer principles has received the recognition it deserves.[5] Earthlyreason (talk) 04:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Babbage'e engine was manufactured during 1830-35 while Boole published his essay on binary logic during 1835-40. It means Babbage's engine was not strictly a computer in the current sense. It means Ada was not the world's first programmer.Anwar (talk) 11:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

If you look in the "Marriage, family, death" section, you'll see:
'His youngest son, Henry Prevost Babbage (1824-1918), went on to create six working difference engines based on his father's designs[1], one of which was sent to Howard H. Aiken, pioneer of the Harvard Mark I. Henry Prevost's 1910 Analytical Engine Mill, previously on display at Dudmaston Hall, is now on display at the Science Museum[2].'
From this it is reasonable to conclude that Charles Babbage's design was directly influential on modern computing, starting with the Harvard Mark I. Andrew Oakley (talk) 08:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Lament

Babbage published a book lamenting the "decline" of science in England in the late 1820s.(!?)Anwar (talk) 15:55, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Quote

The following is quoted in the article:

Every moment dies a man,
Every moment 1 1/16 is born.

I believe Babbage knew about scansion and what he proposed was

Every moment dies a man,
And one and one sixteenth is born.

There are various sources giving this version, but they are Internet quote sites. Does anyone have a reliable source? Rjm at sleepers (talk) 09:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I haven't checked to see who added that quotation or when, but back in February I added this reference for it: Swade, Doron (2000). The Difference Engine. New York: Viking, 77.  Unfortunately, my copy of Swade's book is not close at hand, so I can't check the precise wording. Can someone else? - Astrochemist (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Display

I want to know whether this page is displayed in this way (in Modern skin). Till yesterday my Infobox was displayed as in Mono style. But today problem is happened. Check the screenshot.

Screen shot of the Display
Screen shot of the Display

-- Sidharthan (talk) 15:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Leaving Charles Babbage

According to this site I've been one of the more-regular contributors to Charles Babbage's Wikipedia article during the past two years. Unfortunately, the vandals have worn me down, and so I'm taking this page off of my watchlist. My thanks to everyone for all that I've learned about Mr. Babbage, and for accepting my additions of text, reference checking, citation format, external links, and one photo. Good luck with this page in the future. - Astrochemist (talk) 20:23, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

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