Talk:Economics

	Economics is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 3, 2004.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 19, 2004 Refreshing brilliant prose Kept April 21, 2006 Featured article review Demoted September 21, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed Current Status: Former featured article

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Economic side bar

Placed a general economics side bar toward the top (Part of a series on Economic Systems). This may be a handy ref. for people wishing to skim around related branches of economics and business concepts and maximizes directly related information toward the beginning. Moved the picture of A. Smith just a little... to an area that discusses him that is still prominently toward the top. Included marginalism section to section above it Supply and demand, prices and quantities. Removed the Economic Reasoning section. No reason for it. The article should bring out information as a matter of course...and as mentioned above, by wikiidea, this is just another thinly disguised criticisms section that is ranty with marginal theory, not interesting, side issue debates. Lastly, that haphazard list of different branches of economics is a complete non-entity. It is so because it cannot possibly explain what each one is about, and half of them should form part of the main micro/macro discussion. Very much agree with this editor. History of economic thought can be explain this all better than this section of piece meal little vignettes that are not so hot and not so detailed... so, removed this area... which lengthens the article for no good reason... and am putting special emphasis to direct people to the other pages that specialize in each of these people and their ideas, which can do a good job of dissecting that information. As it was the article had way to much length that needn't have to be... just by giving the article links... most of which are well done in their own right and just plain explain the info. better.

Moved some pictures around... Put the first economic law codes on the top of article and moved the market place picture down farther... in the Supply and demand, prices and quantities area... the picture with this discription... Some different currencys, exchange rates are determined in currency markets used in international trade. with the pictures of different currency. skip sievert (talk) 16:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The Edit summary for the article was good, but the heading above doesn't say where it occurs, decreasing its information value (a general problem for many such headings unfortunately), making closer scrutiny less likely. (Use of the "new section" tab is better for indication the name of the new section.) The Economic Systems sidebar is misplaced in section 1, despite the remarkable success so far of changing the section 1 heading to something also quite wrong ("Politics, economics and culture"), as per Talk:Economics#Possible alternative phrasing). The side bar attempts to make the section about still something else, economic systems. An economic system occurs in a culture, but that does not make the system about the culture. Economics is not contained in economic systems. So, it looks like non-WP:NPOV to include the sidebar here. The same holds if the sidebar is placed in Economic#Economic systems. Economic systems are contained in economics, not the other way around. An argument for restoring the Snith image to Sect. 1 is that it is appropriate for that section and for the next 2 subsections. The first, Economics#Production possibilities, opportunity cost, and efficiency is an analytical treatment of a problem (scarcity) that Smith treated with the promise that his quotation suggested. If the sidebar went, why not move the Smith image back up? --Thomasmeeks (talk) 19:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

When I began workiing on this above there wer only the first 3 sentances. 3 more Edits were added by the time I posted all different topics from the above. No reader would have a clue those topice were discussed on the Talk page from either the associated article Edits or the section heading. The recent history of the Talk page and the article may themselves make history and pose interesting questions. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 22:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Possibly. For that reason it may be a good idea to go to the bottom of the talk page in the future, when making commentary. It can become confusing. I went back to this section because I wanted to add related material to the edits made previously. skip sievert (talk) 22:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The article is not an homage to Smith. Smith is a part of economic history, past and present, and should not be over emphasized. The economic side bar presents information where it should be ... very near the top for reference.

What do you mean by this statement Thomasmeeks quote, Economics is not contained in economic systems... end quote. I do not know.. but to be honest, I can not follow much of what you are saying above as to logic... you seem to bring up the same tired arguments about Smith over and over. Smith is not an end all and be all, as this article seemed to imply previously by the previous ...In the beginning title which apparently still does not have a stake through its heart ... although that has been debated often and ash canned as to neutrality. This article is not about Smith... Ok? Please do not obstruct, making all around information as to this subject available (economics) and focus a narrow focus on Smith. skip sievert (talk) 19:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I mean that "Economic systems" is a classification within econ,, as in the widely-used JEL codes, as at JEL classification codes#Economic systems JEL: P Subcategories rather than econ. being classification within. A brother is a member of a family but not conversely. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 22:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

That seems unduly confusing. There is a host of totally economic related material in the sidebar. The whole thing deals with economics in multiple directions. skip sievert (talk) 22:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, economic-related material within economic systems. By the above reasoning, anything "economic-related" is a target fot the Economic Systems sidebar. Within economics, economic systems is a category per (JEL classification codes#Economic systems JEL: P Subcategories. Within economic sytems, economics is not a subcategory. The presence of the sidebar violates WP:NPOV policy as per above. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 10:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC) --Thomasmeeks (talk)

Yeah wait a minute, "economics" isn't an economic system. That banner is misplaced, and I think it should be removed. -FrankTobia (talk) 01:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah but it is in the economic systems section and that is the name of the banner. So it is in the right place. skip sievert (talk) 03:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

"Economic reasoning" section

The Economics#Economic reasoning was deleted in the previous section (misnamed as to the removal) with this statement:

Removed the Economic Reasoning section. No reason for it. The article should bring out information as a matter of course...and as mentioned above, by wikiidea, this is just another thinly disguised criticisms section that is ranty with marginal theory, not interesting, side issue debates.

There is corresponding material in principles textbooks, the Britannica article, etc. as cited in the section. It is a discussion of methods and examples of economic reasoning, whether critical. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 20:49, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Economic reasoning section needs to return, as does the criticism section, although both could be trimmed. The idea that these should be hidden throughout the article is ludicrous. Instead, they should be part of sections devoted to these ideas, so that the reader can find these things. It looks like there are a lot of changes going on without consensus. II | (t - c) 21:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 21:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd like it if criticism could be put into the appropriate places in the article rather than ghettoized into its own section, and that's the style goal for WP in general. It's also really hard.

I moved the economic reasoning section to "practice" section--the bulk of what was in there was about how professional economists do economics--methodology. Economic reasoning is generally considered to be the basic notions that underlie mainstream economic practice--thinking on the margin, trade-offs, no money left on the table, and such. I have mixed feelings about a section on such things because it would be hard to do it without becoming redundant with more sepcific parts of the article. Anyway, the material in the previous "economic reasoning" section wasn't that. Cretog8 (talk) 04:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Removal of "History and schools of economics" subsections?

I believe that there is no consensus for the removal of "History and schools of economics" subsections (for example as per additional comments in the preceding section). Such removal was urged at Talk:Economics#Economic side bar, 1st para. toward end. Main articles are not a good substitute for a briefer treatment of each in the Economics#History and schools of economics section itself. Nor should selective history be worked worked in throughout the article, which I believe would result in endless WP:NPOV debates, the foretaste of which may be recent additions to section 1 of the article. History is favored by some heterodox economics approaches, which further complicates WP:NPOV in wrking in history throughout the article. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 22:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

threaded talk

Hello--I haven't been able to participate recently, and that will probably continue for a bit. I did want to make a request/suggestion for the talk page. Please don't make a habit of going back and editing your comments. This page isn't the article, so most flaws are harmless, or can be corrected by adding a short additional comment instead of editing the earlier one.

The problem with going back to edit your comments is that it makes it very tricky to keep track of the conversation; which part of a comment is "new" can get lost, a change to a comment which you might consider important might get missed because it's to an old comment; you might edit a comment so that following replies don't make sense, and so forth. I noticed a fair amount of this from several editors when I just tried to review comments since the last time I was here. (Obviously, there are exceptions when it's a good idea, but those are pretty rare.)

Thanks! Cretog8 (talk) 23:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Economics side bar

Within economic sytems, economics is not a subcategory. quote... Thomasmeeks. Oh really? How could that be? That does not make a lot of sense. What do you mean by sub category any way? Please leave the side bar alone. It is full of economics related material. It was created for a purpose such as this by other wikipedians. That is what the article is about. Also that awful picture of the stock market floor should be permanently ash canned. It is blurred. It is hard to look at. I put the other picture up again which is at least a little interesting and connects with the roots of the subject. Also please leave the connector link Thomasmeeks to , thermoeconomics, and technocracy which it now appears you are taking down for unknown reasons. I did not originally put them there... but they should remain... or do you think that those two information articles should be removed from wikipedia ? These are important topics. skip sievert (talk) 00:00, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you on the stock exchange image. I think it's a good image and I don't feel it's hard to look at all. The image that you have added is really quite bad, it's dark, and very unclear at what we are looking at. It is not a lead image at all. The sidebar is fine, but should be moved up so it's below the lead image. --Patrick (talk) 00:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Patrick. I like the old stone thing because it really is the beginning point. That blurred picture (Stock market floor picture) though could give someone a seizure. It is really badly blurred and really is annoying to even look at (my opinion). I will move the side bar now if it fits. Put the old original picture on top.. from when the article was a featured article. The picture of the marketplace Economics can be seen in action at this bazaar in Chichicastenango, Guatemala. skip sievert (talk) 00:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a huge fan of that picture either. The first time I saw it, i thought it was people climbing rubble. I'm looking though commons now and came across this photo Image:Russian Baazar.jpg --Patrick (talk) 00:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I like the one you found... the Russian market. Could you shrink it down and put it in? We could move the other market one down then, into the money section of the article much lower, where it was. Glad you agree on the sidebar.. that seems like way to good of information to not use. skip sievert (talk) 00:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok I added in the Russian market image. I moved up the sidebar and moved the stock exchange image down. There no reason to have two photos of markets in this article so I removed Image:Market-Chichicastenango.jpg. --Patrick (talk) 01:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok... but you are contradicting yourself by saying that. The stock market picture you moved down is only another picture of a market or market place also. The top of the article, does look and feel very nice with the change you made. I still think we should ash can that blurred picture of the Wall Street exchange. It is painful to look at. skip sievert (talk) 01:10, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Part of a series on

Economic systems

Economic ideologies

Anarchist · Capitalist · Communist Corporatist · Fascist · Georgist Islamic · Laissez-faire Market socialist · Mercantilist Protectionist · Socialist Syndicalist · Third Way

Sectors and systems

Closed (Autarky) · Digital · Dual Gift · Informal · Market · Mixed Natural · Open · Participatory Planned · Subsistence Underground · Virtual

Other types of economies

Anglo-Saxon · Feudal · Global Hunter-gatherer · Information Newly industrialized country Palace · Plantation · Post-capitalist Post-industrial · Social market Socialist market · Token Traditional · Transition

Business and economics portal

v • d • e

1. The problems with the Economic Systems side bar per Talk:Economics#Economic side bar above have now been been moved to the Lead. According to the convenient and widely-used JEL classification codes, economics as a subject can be classified into 19 categories (JEL A to R + Z). Economic Systems is one of those (JEL P). Placing the side bar of Economic Systems in the Lead singles out one category above all the rest: That's arguably non-WP:NPOV as to the subject as a whole. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 00:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we could create a template based on the content in JEL. I think something should be there rather then just whitespace. --Patrick (talk) 01:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Whats wrong with it? It is one mass of economic information now the way it is. That is supposed to be the subject here... correct? It is a maze of economic information. All good. skip sievert (talk) 01:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I can say something thats probably arguably non WP:NPOV as to the subject as a whole. That is that you Thomasmeeks have played the obstructionist at every turn of this process... even now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OWN Wikipedia:Ownership of articles - ... and have fought every attempt to make the article more interesting and broaden the information (my opinion). Unless that is just my imagination... and it appears not to be. The article looks half way alright now... I hope you could actually look for new ways to improve the article, rather than defending an old edit that by popular opinion looked awful. skip sievert (talk) 01:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Skipsievert, I really think your comments are uncalled for. Don't be personal. --Patrick (talk) 01:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Well that is your opinion. My opinion is that I am telling it the way I see it and a little honesty is not really bad for the editing process... is it?, am I supposed to pretend that that person...never once says any thing positive or if so qualifies it endlessly with negatives?

Besides that person has specifically engaged me on my talk page... which I was not happy about.. and also had many many comments directed toward me, and has consistently reverted what in my opinion is good information in favor of his information. Also the fact that he has his own mock up version on his user page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Thomasmeeks/Rough_drafts ... makes me wonder if as said about ownership... mostly due to a total resistance at all times to what I would call improvements .. example... In the beginning... which was fought out over and over and over and probably never should have been there in the first place. My only interest here is improving this... and I do not think I am getting personal... just pointing out what I see happening. The article does not look so bad now... it looks pretty good. Why not be open about that. It looks a whole lot better. The sidebar and new picture look good. The information in the side bar is appropriate and complements the other information. skip sievert (talk) 01:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

2. Thanks to each. The preceding except for the last sentence above is a distraction* from (1). The last sentence above appears entirely subjective and unresponsive to (1). The Lead now has a conspicuous sidebar whose presence frames econ through an Economic-Systems lens. How can that not give the appearance of non-WP:NPOV vs. any other category of the JEL codes?

* I’d be happy to discuss the “distraction” with anyone on my Talk page, observing Wikipedia:Disruptive editing-and-other guidelines & sticking to the subject, so as not to distract others on this page. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 03:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources (In this case a well done side bar that is filled with information on the subject of economics). The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly (The side bar has gone through the process of neutrality of articles). None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one (Multiple and varying views are in the side bar). It should also not be asserted that the most popular view, or some sort of intermediate view among the different views, is the correct one to the extent that other views are mentioned only pejoratively (The side bar does not take sides). Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions from good information presented fairly... and each article in the sidebar is directly related to economics and has gone through the gauntlet of being a wiki article already.skip sievert (talk) 04:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

3. If there were a sidebar for any other of the 18 JEL categories (say, History of Economic Thought) comparable to that for Economic Systems, it would be equally non-WP:NPOV and misplaced. The preceding does not meet (1-2). Comments welcome. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 11:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

History of economic thought? How does that apply? Is there a sidebar that exists for that? That is already linked and in the article? No. Most of the side bar information is not in the article presently... and that is the source of its importance... because it gives a multitude of interesting links and connectors... all economics related. A side bar for History of economic thought would be extremely limited. The current side bar is not limited. It is a wealth of material and information. All of economics is in some sort of system. Some form of administration.. and some form of political structure or projected non political structure. This side bar now seems like the perfect connector to that storehouse of more information ... much of which .. as said, not in the present article. It is an easy way to expand the information with links for interested parties needing more related information. The whole idea is to get information out. Good information. That is a compact way to do it. The sidebar is not neutral you are claiming. Sorry... that does not make sense. How could it not be neutral? The side bar is misplaced you say. How could that be? It is only and all about economics. skip sievert (talk) 14:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The economic systems sidebar doesn't fit in this article. This article is not "Part of a series on Economic Systems". It's not a matter of whether there's useful information in the sidebar, it's whether it's appropriate for this article. If there's links there that are appropriate for this article, they can and should be included in the article itself. Cretog8 (talk) 03:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Responding to comment with this reversion. It doesn't matter how many or how good the links are. The sidebar is meant to accompany articles which are "Part of a series on Economic Systems", as it says right up top. This article is not part of that series. Therefore this sidebar is inappropriate. Any links which are appropriate for this article can and should be included in the article itself. As long as there's a section on Economic systems, that would be one obvious place for them. Cretog8 (talk) 16:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Absent any response, I'm removing it again. Skip, if your understanding of this is unchanged and you don't want to discuss it, please at least wait for others to weigh in before reverting. Cretog8 (talk) 17:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Economics has a rainbow of categories. Economic Systems is only one of those many categories per the JEL classification codes, at JEL: P. There is no reason why that should be the sidebar prism in the Lead through which all the other categories in economics are refracted. It would be nice if there were a sidebar for JEL classification codes, but picking category over all the others is not a good solution. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 18:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It appears we're officially into edit war territory. Skip, you seem to believe you have consensus here. In fact, there is far from consensus, probably just because so few editors have weighed in. So far, I evaluate the discussion as two strong "No" (Thomasmeeks and I), one strong "Yes" (you), and one soft "Yes" (Patrick). That's not consensus either way. Cretog8 (talk) 17:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Meant to add this a few days ago but after reading over the discussion, I'm now opposed to the sidebar. I still feel something should go there but I agree with Cretog and Thomas reasoning. Cheers. --Patrick (talk) 02:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Thats nice.. but the debate is on the bottom of the page... Also.. whether there is a consensus or not... has very little to do with whether the economics sidebar is going in. If there is no reason for it to be there, why would not that wealth of information not be added? You are not giving an argument here... just stating you oppose it. Why?skip sievert (talk) 03:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Production possibilities, opportunity cost, and efficiency

The problem with this picture is, it looks awful whether big or small because it is made originally apparently bleary. It is an eyestrain to look at it. If doubled in size it looks bad... and smaller it looks bad... maybe not quite as bad because there is less of it to see. Does any one have an alternative copy of this information.. that is done well? Could a picture be found or made that gets this information across... that is well done... not out of focus?skip sievert (talk) 21:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Also the section Production possibilities, opportunity cost, and efficiency seems hopelessly confusing as is... I have simplified it ... so now the picture probably asked for above may not be an issue. The info. in there before, is just too complicated and convoluted, or was as presented. I have given the bare bones basics as to the subject. The article links are there on the top for interested parties who want to dig in deeper. That section bogged down the article with information from the main sites it quotes... in bits and pieces ... so that it may be better to just give a little of the basic basic info.

I'm not sure how this section should go. It seems like the sectioning may be going too many levels. But if the sectioning is going to go down that many levels, then it should be as actual sections. Cretog8 (talk) 03:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The downsizing of the Image as above makes the text smaller than that of other figures & very hard to read. The allegedly blurred image referenced by the first Editor is no blurrier than say the Template at the top of this page. A non-existent reason is no reason at all for removal of the image and explanatory text by one user. The removal of the Image and of all referenced content with its replacement is shocking. There is no reason for new subsections, at least as earlier written. The heading with the 2 other topice was unified by the production-possibility frontier, now removed from discussion. That destroys the anaytical cohesion that links the topics. A series of definitions and classifications does not add up to uses of their uses. For the record, here (as of July 26) is what the section looked like before the recent series of Edits by one user, compared to after. I think that most readers would consider the changes by far inferior as to analytical content. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 16:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Thomas, my brain is too thick at the moment to make the comparison, but I wanted to let you know that I will come back to it and compare the versions. Cretog8 (talk) 16:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Environmental economics

That part of the article previously said that Environmental economics and Ecological economics were not to be conflated. That was wrong, or not factual information. At the very least the phrasing using that word (not to be conflated) was misplaced. They are related but different. So, made a more explicit aspect in the article as to that, by adding a couple of linked citations as to what both are ... and the new paragraph below the old one below.

Environmental economics is concerned with issues related to degradation, enhancement, or preservation of the environment. In particular, public bads from production or consumption, such as air pollution, can lead to market failure. The subject considers how public policy can be used to correct such failures. Policy options include regulations that reflect cost-benefit analysis or market solutions that change incentives, such as emission fees or redefinition of property rights.[86][87]

Environmental economics is related to ecological economics but there are differences.[88] Most environmental economists have been trained as economists. They apply the tools of economics to address environmental problems, many of which are related to so-called market failures--circumstances wherein the "invisible hand" of economics is unreliable.[89] Most ecological economists have been trained as ecologists, but have expanded the scope of their work to consider the impacts of humans and their economic activity on ecological systems and services, and vice-versa. This field takes as its premise that economics is a strict subfield of ecology. Ecological economics is sometimes described as taking a more pluralistic approach to environmental problems and focuses more explicitly on long-term environmental sustainability and issues of scale. (new area above)

Here are the new references citations added to the second paragraph... that point out the differences and alikeness. http://www.nber.org/workinggroups/ee/ee.html NBER Working Group Descriptions. This one on Environmental econ. and this one http://www.eoearth.org/by/Topic/Ecological%20economics Article Topic: ecological economics. Which is on Ecological economics.

Also added more very basic history of economic thought beginnings in the lower History section of article. skip sievert (talk) 18:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Malthus picture and description in sidebar information in Classical Economics section.

Added... a sidebar section on Malthus. A lot of interesting and pertinent link connectors in that box. It includes far ranging elements of the economic debate of the period and influences. skip sievert (talk) 14:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Skip. Pre-emptive comment--I'll appear more critical of your edits than I really am, just because it's the negatives that I feel I need to react to, while I can just lie back and appreciate the positives. Thanks for your work.

The Malthus sidebar doesn't belong here. Sure, it contains useful stuff, but a sidebar is a big deal so a Malthus sidebar gives Malthus undue weight. There are pictures of Marx and Keyes close by, and they (as well as others) are more prominent than Malthus and so would merit a sidebar first. But I don't think that any specific economist merits a sidebar in this article, they can be saved for the articles on those economists. If there's links contained within the sidebar that are valuable and appropriate for the article, they should be in the text of the article. Cretog8 (talk) 03:25, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

It may be that a picture of Malthus would fit nicely in the article--I'm not so good at figuring out the pictures stuff. Cretog8 (talk) 03:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Malthus cautioned law makers on the effects of poverty reduction policies.

Effect on society section should perhaps go now. Also the Ethics and economics section. Mostly the information is unfocused. It has been a while since they were tagged. Other areas in the article address the issues mostly in context... or should perhaps to more of a degree of rhetoric polemic? Thanks much for the positive feedback. There may be a picture of Malthus around somewhere. skip sievert (talk) 17:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

This picture seems to do the job. Added to article. skip sievert (talk) 17:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Picture caption of Russian bazaar

Ashgabat is in Turkmenistan. --76.113.150.171 (talk) 08:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. It has been changed. --Patrick (talk) 08:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Politics economics and culture / origins / in the beginning

On second thought, I'm just cutting this section out, it's too much of a garble now. I've preserved it for the time being at my scratchpad to make it easy to retrieve stuff from it, since I'm sure some of it should wind up in the article somewhere. Cretog8 (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

How could "Politics economics & culture" have lasted since July 26?

(Please don't hesitate to comment above if that is your focus.) It is an interesting question how a quotation by Adam Smith could be construed as so partial that according to one Editor, the (now-removed) section 1 needed to go from this to this, complete with heading change to "Politics, economics and culture" -- and that's after the certain-not-to-make-the-final-cut Economic Systems sidebar was moved to ... the Lead (on which see Talk:Economics#Economics side bar). (A rationale for the long-standng earlier section is at Talk:Economics#Reorganized a few sections arguments on the added meterial, for (1-3) and agaist, see Talk:Economics#Physiocrats. The heading "Politics, economics and culture" lasted since July 26, despite its irrelevance to the section (unless one accepts that mention of an ancient civilization (Mesopotamian) and the word "political" in the whole phrase "political economy" as sufficient warrant for the heading , which is preposterous). Why did it last so long? Two users challenged the new heading (at Talk:Economics#Possible alternative phrasing), but Talk sections & counterclaims by one user proliferated as the article and Talk page was overwhelmed by additional Edits. Lasting lessons doubtless will be learned from this experience.

For what it’s worth, I think the section symbolizes what can happen to an article from sufficient determination of a single prolific Editor insufficiently challenged. or reverted. Establishment of a beachhead in sect. 1 seems to have been only the first phase of a drastic article rewrite. If the section removal is not contested, that would be evidence that the editor in question was satisfied with its removal. What we have then is a nice algorithm for removing a section: freight it with so many features that are objected to by others, that removal seems the easiest way out. The prospective reader can’t complain, because s/he neve gets a chance to read it. Very neat. –Thomasmeeks (talk) 02:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like a conspiracy theory to me pal. Really the article is about twice as good as before. A real effort has been made to improve it, not just defend a version that seemed to be held for the most part... not very highly, at all. I appears that you are making a very highly veiled attack above in some direction or another... but I can not follow it. Phrased in shadowy language. In the mean time the article is drastically improved... and that is not preposterous at all. Economic systems sidebar, by popular acclaim, looks good and provides excellent information. How could it have lasted? The larger question may be In the beginning and how it was that it was there anyway. skip sievert (talk) 03:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The second Editor above ("SEor," so it's not personal) can take full responsibility for what the section 1 of the article became, leading to its removal. A conspiracy theory implies something hidden. What has happened to the article & on this page recently is quite open and bad enough without conspiracy. I believe that most readers familiar with both an earlier version and Economics now would consider the latter a great degradation. Another example is discussed at Talk:Economics#Production possibilities, opportunity cost, and efficiency above, now section 1.1. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 16:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I guess you are serious... The earlier version was decried as a mess before its change by multiple editors. Now it has some pictures on it that are not out of focus. The information particularly at the beginning is simplified and intelligible. The article is main article linked ... it was not much before. You may be emotionally invested... it seems in your version.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Thomasmeeks/Rough_drafts... but that should not lead to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OWN Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. The discussions before the improvement were mostly centered around the version that no one hardly liked... and was complained about... and continuously reverted to your version. skip sievert (talk) 19:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Just to weigh in in case comments like that above give the wrong impression. It's not at all clear that most editors prefer the current revision of the article to the version of (say) 2 months ago. I don't believe there's any evidence here on the talk page that that is the consensus. Skip, obviously you feel your edits are improvements, otherwise you wouldn't have made them. That's understood. Cretog8 (talk) 20:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

As I've said in previous comments, it became unclear what that section was for. Obviously, the vague title had something to do with that lack of clarity. In any case, without some such clarity, the section was irredeemable. If the section, in earlier incarnations, was intended to be a snippet of history before the bulk of the article, then I'm not sure something like that is appropriate. (And when I say, "I'm not sure" I really mean that. I'm intending to go look at other articles to see if they have similar sections, and how they're handled.

I do encourage anyone to go grab material from the section which I've preserved for now at my scratchpad to re-incorporate.Cretog8 (talk) 21:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Well thanks for the scratch pad but all the versions are archived in the article and can be retrieved. I agree with the basic sentiment above... it.. the Adam Smith section did not really belong there in the first place... since it was there.. I was only trying to balance it. As said, economics in general, is not an homage to Smith.. and mostly he just presented recycled material from the past... cleverly and relatively in a humanitarian way... for the 18th. century. As said in another section below.. I have already salvaged and added some material from there... stuff cited in the Chomsky book to Specialization, division of labour, (The quote from Smith about factions and gains from trade which mentions Smith and Wealth of Nations. This is probably a better place for that info. to end up in anyway. In the beginning section hopefully is never to appear again. It worked originally as an advertisement for Smith, which is not needed... and thats about all. skip sievert (talk) 02:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Historic definitions of economics

I'm removing the "Historic definitions of economics" section. This is one of the places where the article delved too deep into stuff which belongs in other articles. I have placed the material from the section at my scratchpad for easy referral. Cretog8 (talk) 09:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. This is what WP:SUMMARIZE is for. Anything useful can go in an article such as History of economic thought. -FrankTobia (talk) 15:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Expanded... Specialization, division of labour, and gains from trade

Expanded just a little to include some documented misgivings also of Smith, that says directly what he thought could be problems in the overall economic system... and issues related to labour, trade, and specialization.. Here....

In The Wealth of Nations, Smith addressed many issues that are currently also the subject of debate and dispute. Smith repeatedly attacks groups of politically aligned individuals who attempt to use their collective influence to manipulate a government into doing their bidding. In Smiths day, these were referred to as factions, but are now more commonly called special interests, a term which can comprise international bankers, corporate conglomerations, outright oligopolies, monopolies, trade unions and other groups.[18]

This makes a good counterpoint to the first ideas presented... that it has to be looked at also in the broader context... and Smith did indeed look at the broader context also... and not just present ideas as at all perfect. skip sievert (talk) 17:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Moved this bit to the "market failure" section. It's still a bit awkward, but makes more sense there (unless moved to public choice or something). Cretog8 (talk) 01:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The reason I put it where it was ... because it was a Smith related part of the article any way and connected with Specialization, division of labour, and gains from trade as in how those can be compromised. It may have been better where it was, so I changed it back. It was a counter balance to making it appear that Smith was all sweetness and light about those issues and not a social critic also. It was located in the area that discussed those subjects and what happens when things are misguided or compromised with those subjects... as to political interference. skip sievert (talk) 02:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Smith said lots of stuff, but that section isn't about Smith it's about certain ideas which Smith talked about (as well as others). And then there's these other ideas, which are not about gains from trade, specialization, etc. So, they don't belong in that section. If those different ideas do belong in the same section, then (as best I can see) that section would have to be Smith-specific. Cretog8 (talk) 03:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the following sentence captures what's essential about that paragraph: "In The Wealth of Nations, Smith pointed out that special interests (or "factions") use their collective influence to manipulate a government into doing their bidding." Thoughts? Cretog8 (talk) 03:24, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

No, that cuts the very important information to much. The point is to let people know that Smith viewed things in a complex way. The full text of it now says that... The section also starts out with Smith commentary and also discusses the mechanics of Smiths ideas, and Smiths counterpoint of criticism related to the basics of his ideas. It is a short paragraph now.. shortening it further removes counterpoint information. Presenting real counterpoint and actual criticism in the article makes it more balanced. It is important to present a well rounded view of Smith. It is only a few lines.. but gives a lot of information.. and directly connects to the subject in the section. Smiths misgivings and his own critique. The actual Adam Smith article puts a special emphasis about this as regards Smith,... and really this information presents ..now, a nice thumbnail of it ... as is. skip sievert (talk) 16:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

On second thought another editor (Imperfectly informed) suggested moving it also... and there is one section it probably could easily belong in. That is the criticisms section. It feels more organically appropriate there... so moved it again.skip sievert (talk) 21:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

A note on criticism sections

I noticed Cretog8's comment above in the "Economic reasoning" section, which could be roughly paraphrased as "Wiki policy is that criticism should be worked into the page". This is a widely-held misconception. Wikipedia has no defined policy on criticism sections. Some people heavily dislike them, others think they are sometimes necessary. I'm in the latter camp. The template discouraging criticism sections was put up for deletion (9 keeps, 10 deletes) because there is no consensus on this issue. When someone is directing a critique at a subject, that critique often properly belongs in a criticism section. The argument that they are a symptom of bad writing just ignores the compelling argument that they are a service to readers' who want to hear the criticisms of the subject, not for trollish reasons, but because critiques expose problems which deserve attention. Inserting criticisms which are not a part of the basic exposition can make for a disorganized essay, and make the criticisms impossible to find. Now, in many cases critiques can be forked off, and I think that the "Preoccupation with mathematics" is a decent fork (although I'm still pondering it). Similarly, the ethics criticisms could perhaps be simply forked off into an ethics section. Incidentally, there was recently a book published by a high-profile economist on how economics is bad for ethics, ie it makes people more greedy. Anyone recall what it was? The book was definitely more of a critique from what I heard, not an exposition. II | (t - c) 19:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the template has been altered since the TFD to better reflect the consensus. See areas such as WP:NPOV#Article Sturcture, Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Article structure, & Wikipedia:Pro and con lists. Morphh ^(talk) 20:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

A little more. Relevant primary sources are also the Wikipedia:Controversial articles guideline & Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Achieving neutrality policy (per relevant subsections). As to criticism of the subject broadly speakiing, heterodox economics might come closest to warranting a separate section. As to Math econ, the Encyclopædia Britannica article by Mark Blaug on econ. has a sentence at the end of the math econ. section suggesting the dangers of modeling assumptions based on math convenience. That sentence might be relevant to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Article structure and Undue weight subsections. On ethics, arguably that's either about welfare economics, normative economics, or economists (or majors). Producing greedy people might be a heterodox critique of mainstream economics. Survey data to support the charge might be of interest, but that would seem tangential to the subject of econ. as a whole. I think Blaug writes that every great economist expressed a desire to change the world for the better. How bad can that be? On a different topic, economists come in all political flavors, so that should not be an issue. In academe, my impression is that survey data do not find a huge difference in their politics from their colleagues in other dept., at least at elite institutions. --Thomasmeeks (talk) 21:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks all. I stand corrected, though still not enlightened. The various non-policies on this matter are bewildering. In any case, for myself it may be irrelevant since I'm not a good enough writer (yet?!) to do the optimal allocation of criticisms to their right places in the article.

I do have one strong preference, which I already acted on somewhat. I think that internal criticisms should be separate from external criticisms. That is, I think criticisms that are economists making arguments aimed at other economists that economics can be practiced better should be separate from criticisms (from any source) of some aspects of economics which are of general interest. For instance, I think the McCloskey critique (or critiques) are valuable, but really of interest to practicing economists rather than the general public. Criticisms that mainstream economic thought promotes irresponsible consumerism are a matter of general interest (and still seem very awkward in the article, but that's something else). Cretog8 (talk) 00:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Well.. I did add that Adam Smith quote above and that certainly is a criticism.. but also part of his overall approach to bring out that information... so that people could look at it and debate it... I am sure. He apparently felt strongly about it. I am no Chomsky fan at all... but Chomsky brought out the criticism in one of his books http://www.understandingpower.com/Chapter5.htm#f1

Chapter 5... and perhaps this information could go into a criticism section later... but it seemed to fit all right into the section it was put in. Seems to me that all or most of the points on criticism are better if incorporated into the article if possible. Then it is more organic perhaps, if opposing ideas are presented in context... as long as it is made apparent, that is what they are. As far as a separate section on heterodox... not sure it is needed. There is a main article link to it.. at the top. In the mean time I just did some grunt work... added under ::::Externalities and market failure

Main articles: Externality and Market failure

It looks like there is one more section were main articles have to be under the heading. At any rate... so what about removing the Effect on society and also the Ethics and economics sections. Or combining them into a real criticism section that is more focused... and hits a bunch of things and not just a couple, and related things. skip sievert (talk) 01:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A section titled "Criticisms of economic models" should be just that. Many of the included criticisms are not of economic models, so it's mis-named. Also see comments below on sectioning. This section might need improvement, but the recent changes are bad. Cretog8 (talk) 17:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you go to the section where this is being discussed on the bottom of the page. It is hard to follow otherwise. It is that.... There is no wikipedia article of that name... just differing economic philosophy article. It is not misnamed. They are not bad as you say without argument. It is a reshuffling of the existing info. Please go to the section below. skip sievert (talk) 17:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Financial economics & Schools of economics

added a link to the main article

Main article: Financial economics

to the that section. Also added Schools of economics main article link

Main article: Schools of economics

skip sievert (talk) 16:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

sectioning

Unless there's some bit of MoS I've missed (quite possible), sections should be sections. In other words, if there's a piece of the article which is set apart with a title, etc., then that should happen via wiki markup for sectioning, not just layout and bolding and such. Cretog8 (talk) 16:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes.. you may have missed the fact that the sectioned was tagged for removal in general because the information was mostly unsourced... and incoherently presented in several sections... and how many sections should be in an area like that?. Now there is a subsection on Ethics which connects a main article Ethics

Main article: Philosophy of economics

Maybe you did not see that before you reverted it. That whole so called Criticism area was not really focused. That is why it was tagged for either removal or improvement for unsourced material. I have removed most of the unsourced or un cited material ... and combined... what was left. Just having that Philosophy of economics in this area is important. People can look into that section then themselves easily. Since the idea of a Criticisms sections has been debated and it is disputed... I have compromised... gotten rid of some, and made the rest more understandable. That does not mean it can not be edited now for improvement. Why revert it though? It is better (my opinion) now than it was formerly when tagged up every which way to, clean up. skip sievert (talk) 17:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I did see that, and I'm currently agnostic as to whether that's appropriate. What I note here is simply that if you sub-section things, they should be subsections, not set off by spaces and bold text. What I noted in the thread on the criticism section above was that your section title is wrong. Cretog8 (talk) 17:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Criticisms of economic models

Many of the issues in the criticism section are not addressed at economic models. For instance, "The premise of ethical consumerism is that one should take into account ethical and environmental concerns, in addition to financial and traditional economic considerations, when making buying decisions." So, the title "Criticism" is better. Cretog8 (talk) 17:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok great... but... we are talking about Criticisms... variable criticism... by a series of people. All differing. That means Criticisms. That is information that was reformulated from the previous incarnation of confused material of several sections. Mostly I just left the stuff that was cited or sourced. It is a plural bunch of criticisms though under economic philosophy so... I disagree about the title. It is multiple Critiques.

I mean incrementally add more neutral and interesting information, and get rid of redundant info. Remember when you ditched the section on Politics economics and culture or In the beginning.. or what ever. That was an improvement. What is wrong with an economics bar that focuses on economics? That is what the article is about... right? Economics. It has links and information otherwise not in the article. Another editor accepted it gracefully... and even moved it to better advantage.... when it was newly on there. skip sievert (talk) 17:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Debate on the use of this sidebar

Part of a series on

Economic systems

Economic ideologies

Anarchist · Capitalist · Communist Corporatist · Fascist · Georgist Islamic · Laissez-faire Market socialist · Mercantilist Protectionist · Socialist Syndicalist · Third Way

Sectors and systems

Closed (Autarky) · Digital · Dual Gift · Informal · Market · Mixed Natural · Open · Participatory Planned · Subsistence Underground · Virtual

Other types of economies

Anglo-Saxon · Feudal · Global Hunter-gatherer · Information Newly industrialized country Palace · Plantation · Post-capitalist Post-industrial · Social market Socialist market · Token Traditional · Transition

Business and economics portal

v • d • e

I say it has good info. and should be at the top of the article under the first picture. It is all about Economics... the subject in question. It has valuable links to multiple economics related material... concepts and ideas .. that are otherwise not in the article. So.. it is a way to bump up the educational information... an easy way.. for the article. The links in this are invaluable.skip sievert (talk) 20:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

For anyone who's missed it, there's previous discussion in this section and this section. Repeating myself from above, this sidebar doesn't belong in this article because it is designed for articles which are "Part of a series on Economic Systems". This article is not part of that series. There may also be other reasons it does not belong, but this one reason should be enough. Cretog8 (talk) 20:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The side bar is not designed to the exclusion of the subject of Economics in a particular article if when it is put in it makes more and better information as to economics known... which is the point here. Look at the information in it. The information is not designed for for articles which are "Part of a series on Economic Systems". It is broad as to economics information. Why put all this good information into one category... one which you think should not be used? The Economic ideologies alone is fantastic... it deprives the article to not use this info. It makes it more well rounded (my opinion).skip sievert (talk) 21:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I've solicited other opinions at the sidebar talk page and the Economics project page. Cretog8 (talk) 21:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Another possibility... move Economics systems side bar to See also section at lower end of article. If.. Business and economics portal in the current edit is kept... this would kill two birds with one stone... as the Business and economics portal is already in the Economics system sidebar currently as part of the content. skip sievert (talk) 22:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's a good idea, it's clutter at the bottom and any links which need to be in the article can be handled better as part of the article. Cretog8 (talk) 01:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Information well presented is not clutter. There is no way to put those kinds of links directly in the article because they are tangents of economics like different systems that will not be discussed in a basic economics article. The wealth of information would also include the Business and economics portal as it stands now .. which is pretty iffy material perhaps.skip sievert (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Isn't Economic systems section best place for it? It is customary to place such sidebars inside relevant sections. -- Vision Thing -- 20:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

If that's standard, then it could make sense for this article also. Hopefully it wouldn't screw up the layout. VT, can you point out examples where sidebars are used that way? I normally have seen one sidebar per article. CRETOG8(t/c) 21:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok good. I wonder though if the section Business and Economics Portal should be edited out of the sidebar though as it contains political information not related? skip sievert (talk) 23:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Drat, it does screw up the layout. As it is, there's no way to see that it's associated with the Economic Systems section. Skip, maybe you could also find examples in other articles where sidebars like this are used for specific sections? That might help. And unless the layout can be cleaned up a lot, I still don't like it. Plus I continue to figure that material from the sidebar can be included in the article, or if it can't be, then it's fine to leave it out since it's only a click away through Economic system anyway. As for the Business and Economics portal link, that's a different discussion. CRETOG8(t/c) 23:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Well it is where it should be I think placed in the proper section. Lots of pictures overlap sections in other articles... and this is probably not an aesthetic beauty contest... but information delivery. Also the information is such a wealth that it could never be worked into the article. I do think that the lower section that borders on business and politics should not be in the side bar though. I removed the Business and Economics Portal in the lower see other section as that information was redundant now in the economic systems section sidebar above. That improves the other section ... so maybe that is a trade off. skip sievert (talk) 23:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Cretog8, it seems you are right. Articles that are placed higher in hierarchy usually don't contain sidebars of articles that are lower in hierarchy. -- Vision Thing -- 17:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for checking, VT. I'll pull the sidebar out. CRETOG8(t/c) 03:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Usually don't.. and lower in hierarchy? That does not sound like policy, is it? skip sievert (talk) 03:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed two side bars

Removed the two unrelated side bars in lower section. If an actual Economics side bar is felt to be inappropriate to put in an economic article, for some... then a Business/Political .. and Utilitariansim sidebar probably should not be here either. Particularly the political sidebar, maybe the economics related business one could be in... but that may be debatable since this is not a business article and it contains political business information also.

Business and economics portal

The Utilitarianism series, part of the Politics series
Utilitarian Thinkers Jeremy Bentham John Stuart Mill Henry Sidgwick Peter Singer Forms preference utilitarianism rule utilitarianism act utilitarianism Two-level utilitarianism Total utilitarianism Average utilitarianism Negative utilitarianism animal welfare Abolitionism (bioethics) Hedonism Enlightened self-interest Predecessors Epicurus David Hume William Godwin Key concepts Pain Suffering Pleasure Utility Happiness Eudaimonia Consequentialism Felicific calculus Problems Mere addition paradox Paradox of hedonism Utility monster See Also Rational choice theory Game theory Social choice Economics
Portal:Politics

I'm with you on the Utilitarianism box (although I might cut it some slack since it's in the "see also" section). The portal link certainly belongs... I'm fuzzy on where in an article is the best place for such a link, so I'll put it back in that spot for now. Cretog8 (talk) 17:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

So maybe we could put the Part of a series on Economic Systems side bar in the S