Template talk:Romanticism

Contents 1 Comment 2 Added Ossian to Culture section 3 Further additions/amendments 4 The Five 5 Musicians

Comment

Wow, all poets, and not one for romantic literature. Stbalbach 13:56, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Adding the third member of the French triumvirate to this template: Hugo, Delacroix, and Berlioz.

In the list of musicians, I strongly question the inclusion of Grieg and Puccini versus the omission of Mendelssohn, Brahms, Bruckner, and possibly Mahler, but I won't make these substitutions without first observing any debate on the subject here. In terms of 19th century music history: to make a gross generalisation, romanticism was characterised by two groups - we might call Mendelssohn, Schumann and Brahms the conservatives, who wrote new music but preserved old forms, and on the other hand the progressives such as Berlioz, Wagner, and Liszt wanted to widen or invent new musical forms for their music. This did not prevent members of one camp admiring those in the other (in contrast to the frequently alleged Brahms-Wagner controversy, which was pushed more by those carrying banners for their composers than the individuals themselves). Philip Legge _{phi1ip@netscape·net} 02:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Added Ossian to Culture section

The "Ossian" phenomenon was an important influence on Romanticism in general (despite being completely invented), so I have added a link to the Culture sub-section. Perhaps Macpherson himself should go in the Poetry section? Even though he was a fraud he exerted a huge influence over the Romantic movement; besides which the poems themselves are not without literary merit. 90.205.92.103 (talk) 14:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Further additions/amendments

• Changed Poetry to Literature (still points to Romantic Poetry, though, as there's no article covering Romantic literature in general. Obviously there should be one).
• Added Bellini, Berwald, Bizet, Elgar, Field, Franck, Glinka, Saint-Saëns, R. Strauss and Wolf to Music. Removed Beethoven and Sibelius.
• Added Carlyle, Hoffman, Macpherson, Poe, Scott and Southey to Literature.
• Added Blake to Visual Arts, since he was obviously an extremely important figure in that field as well. 90.205.92.3 (talk) 17:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The Five

If no one minds, I'm going to split the mighty handful into their own names: many of the "uninitiated" would not think to look for any one of them under that general banner.

Telos (talk) 04:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Musicians

Would those editing this template please note that it is about 'Romanticism' not about 'Romantic music'. It should not therefore include anyone whose music mas largely related to the period after 1848 or so. By all means set up another template for 'Romantic music' (if anyone wants to) but don't confuse the two - the two WP articles do their best to explain the differences. --Smerus (talk) 06:23, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Seconded. --Kleinzach 07:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

This template is being IP raided again and again. Maybe we should get it protected? --Kleinzach 02:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not the one editing the template, but I think that whoever is had a point. Romanticism in music continued long after its influence waned in the other arts. To say that, for example, Tchaikovsky, was not a manifestation of the Romantic tradition is outright wrong, as confirmed by both his page and the page on Romantic music. This is merely an attempt to conflate different art forms into a precise historic period when in reality, the dates don't overlap perfectly. So what if Sibelius wrote after 1848 if he did it in the Romantic spirit? It's also completely unfair to call these recent edits vandalism because they are unmistakable in good faith: someone probably thought they were making a useful contribution by adding a composer that had been overlooked. Why should your narrow view of what Romanticism includes prevail over a broader one? There needs to be actual debate here before this template is protected. Telos (talk) 05:19, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Fine. We can debate, but please argue your own case and don't attribute views to those you disagree with. Tell us which composers were part of the Romantic movement (i.e. Romanticism) and why. Smerus is one of the leading editors on this period and I'm sure he will be interested in your views. P.S. Please note that I edit in a Romantic spirit but I am not part of the Romantic Movement. --Kleinzach 05:41, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I would just point out again that Wikipedia has two existing articles, (neither of them written by me), Romanticism and Romantic music. They clearly set out criteria for their topics. The template is related to the article Romanticism. The IP editor who added his favourite names was therefore a vandal, in that he clearly hadn't read the article (or this discussion) and was adding misleading information - viz., names who were not involved with the movement of Romanticism. If anyone seeks to include in the template composers who fall outside the remit of the present Romanticism article, s/he should logically proceed by first editing the Romanticism article so that its criteria include the composers that they wish to admit to the fold. One could for example propose that 'Romanticism' and 'Romantic music' be merged - indeed that would be a good way of testing the water as to how Wikipedians feel. (I give advance warning that I would strongly oppose it!).(P. S. In the spirit of Kleinzach, I would add that I am something of a cynic, but I don't live in ancient Greece). --Smerus (talk) 06:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I would question the logic above. It's not to say that it's wrong, just that I'm not convinced. I don't find the two articles (Romanticism and Romantic music) making a very good case of separating the two. In fact, they appear to do the opposite as in the first article (Romanticism), the heading "Romanticism and Music" directs to "Romantic music" as its main article. At present, the only difference made in the articles is thus that one concerns only music, one concers Romanticism as a whole. As for the composers in the template, would anyone care to explain why, say, Grieg is included and Sibelius excluded? I'm not particularly interested in either of these two, it's the criteria for whom to include and whom to exclude I'm interested in. JdeJ (talk) 19:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Grieg is not included. Is this a misunderstanding - or was it included recently? (There have been numerous attempts by IPs to include every composer down to Rachmaninov.) --Kleinzach 00:32, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I must admit to be confused when I first examined this navbar, and immediately wondered why some of the great Romantic-era composers weren't represented on it. So I read the article about Romanticism, which mentions some dates that the musical aspect of the movement covers (but only indirectly for the other disciplines). It might be clearer to editors uninformed on the differences between Romanticism and the Romantic musical era if dates were in the template header (and/or the discipline headers, if the date ranges covering them vary widely enough). The article on Romanticism would probably benefit from a more explicit indication of dates as applied to the various disciplines. Doing these things might somewhat reduce the sort of edit warring at issue here. (Yes, I know dates for these sorts of things are necessarily fuzzy or somewhat arbitrary. The article can properly qualify that, though.) Magic♪piano 14:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem of 'musical romanticism' goes through several articles not just this navbox. Romantic music (which I once tried to get renamed as '19th century music') refers to the period of 1850-1910 as the 'Late Romantic Era' and has a section on 'Romanticism in the 20th century'. Overall this article overemphasizes romanticism - the word appears in almost every section and paragraph. --Kleinzach 00:44, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

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